Joko Beck

Keskustelua buddhalaisuudesta.
MarkoH
Viestit: 891
Liittynyt: 22 Tammi 2014 03:15

Joko Beck

ViestiKirjoittaja MarkoH » 16 Joulu 2014 04:00

Heippa! Joko Beck (1917-2011) oli amerikkalainen zen-opettaja jolla on sanottu olleen psykologinen ote opetuksissaan. En ole koskaan tutustunut syvemmin yhdenkään naisen opetuksiin (sori) ja olen aina vihannut psykologeja ja psykologiaa (en kuitenkaan vihaa naisia), joten yllättävää kohdallani että avaan tällaisen keskustelun. Elämä yllättää, yes!!!

En tiennyt Joko Beckistä aikaisemmin muuta kuin yhden sitaatin joka oli jäänyt mieleeni ja popsahti sieltä esiin muutama päivä sitten kun sille tuli tilausta, se meni jotenkin niin että "suurin pelkomme on se, että emme kenties olekaan olemassa." Hän on näköjään kirjoittanut pari kirjaa, "Everyday Zen: Love and Work" (suom. "Jokapäiväinen zen") ja "Nothing Special: Living Zen."

En ole lukenut enkä aio lukea näitä kirjoja... Syy on se, että löysin tällaisen kirjoitettujen puhelinkeskustelujen sarjan (Tom L:n ja Joko Beckin välillä), jotka läpi luettuani tulin siihen tulokseen että mikään kirja ei vaan millään voi osua paremmin maaliinsa kuin nämä tosielämän keskustelut. Kaikki tykkää tarinoista, myöntäkää pois, ja näihin keskusteluihin sisältyy minusta aivan mahtava tarina, johon verrattuna Raamatun evankeliumit on täyttä kuraa. Kuten monissa loistavissa elokuvissa on, tämäkin tarina voi tuntua aluksi tuntua vain tylsältä... Mutta kun juoni alkaa selkiytyä ja syventyä, näkemyksesi voi muuttua kuten minunkin. Uskon siis että näistä keskusteluista on hyötyä ja iloa jollekin muullekin. Toivottavasti molempia jotta osuu napakymppiin. Tai omaan rakkaaseen anukseen. Enjoy! Tilanne on toivoton muttei vakava! ...eiku... Tilanne on vakava muttei toivoton!

Heikkoina hetkinäni olen edelleen sitä mieltä että psykologiaa, kuten teologiaakaan, ei tulisi opettaa yliopistossa, mutta tällaisesta psykologiasta minäkin tykkään. Kukapa voisi olla tykkäämättä ja mikä voisi olla motiivi? Oikeasti?

Joko Beck interviews with a Zen phone student

MarkoH
Viestit: 891
Liittynyt: 22 Tammi 2014 03:15

Re: Joko Beck

ViestiKirjoittaja MarkoH » 25 Joulu 2014 01:42

Ah, aihe ei sitten tunnu kauheasti kiinnostavan? Jo on kumma. Poikkeuksellisesti laitoin saman avauksen useammalle foorumille, tiedän ettei se ole korrektia, mutta taisin innostua vähän liikaa. Sattuuhan sitä. Näkökulmalla pääsimme sentään keskustelun alkuun, mutta eipä juuri muuta. Uskoin että ajattelusta tykkäävät ihmiset jotka tavallisesti saavat näppylöitä sanasta "zen", voisivat tykästyä tähän, mutta vielä mitä. Kukaan ei vaivautunut lukemaan antamaani linkkiä. Tai jos luki, ei uskaltanut sanoa sitä ääneen. Jos lukivat, niin toivottavasti nyt edes menivät hämilleen. Edes pikkuisen.

Ehkä tämä sitten on oikeasti ihan tylsää paskaa joka on kuultu sen sataan kertaan ja se olen vain minä joka on hurahtamassa... hiphei!

http://nakokulma.net/index.php?topic=12851.0

Avatar
tommi
Viestit: 639
Liittynyt: 09 Helmi 2013 22:10
titteli: über geek
Viesti:

Re: Joko Beck

ViestiKirjoittaja tommi » 25 Joulu 2014 19:14

MarkoH kirjoitti:Ah, aihe ei sitten tunnu kauheasti kiinnostavan? Jo on kumma.

Minä luin tuota jonkin verran ja ajattelin kommentoida sitten kun olen saanut luettua kokonaan, mutta se onkin aika helvetin pitkä ja olen vasta ehtinyt lukemaan vähän alusta, joten menisi varmaan liian kauan ennen kuin sen saa kokonaan luettua, ja kun täällä jo mökkihöperöiden erakoiden joulupaniikkihäiriöt oireilevat, niin täytyy varmaan kommentoida jo tässä vaiheessa, vaikka en ole tekstiä vielä kokonaan ehtinyt lukemaan.

Englanninkielisissä keskusteluissa esiintyy termi "tl;dr", joka on lyhennys sanoisa "Too long; didn't read", eli "liian pitkä; en jaksanut lukea", jolla viitataan siihen että jos linkattu teksti on liian pitkä, niin monet eivät jaksa edes aloittaa sen lukemista. Tässäkin tapauksessa näennäinen kiinnostuksen puute saattaa johtua tästä ilmiöstä. Keskustelu voisi ehkä houkuttaa useampia, jos linkitetystä tekstistä laittaisi jonkun yhteenvedon, vaikka ne ydinkohdat jotka itsestä tuntuivat olennaisilta.

Tuossa alkupuolella, jota ehdin lukemaan, puhutaan kuinka tunteet ovat yhdistelmä kehollisia tuntemuksia ja ajatuksia. Tästä heräsi ajatus, että onko Zenissä kyse tällaisesta tunteiden "käsittelemisestä"? Puhutaanko esim. zen-perinteen teksteissä tällaisesta? Vai onko tämä kenties jonkinlainen pyrkimys hakeutua nykyään vallitsevan psykoterapiakulttuurin "imuun"?

Minua on jo pidempään ihmetyttänyt miten evlut-kirkon piirissä harrastetaan kaikenlaista keskusteluterapiaa ja muuta vastaavaa. Käsittääksen Jeesus tai Paavali tai kukaan muukaan ei raamatussa sano: "Totisesti, parisuhdeongelmiasi tulee sinun freudilaisessa keskusteluterapiassa käsittelemän". Miksi siis kirkko harrastaa tällaisia terapioita ym.? Tulee mieleen, että kirkon parissa on jossain vaiheessa huomattu, kuinka ympäröivä yhteiskunta on innostunut tällaisista terapioista, ja siellä on todettu: "Voi hitsi! Meillä on tarjota ihmisille pelkkää raamatusta löytyvää taikauskoista hölynpölyä! Meidän pitää välittömästi lähteä mukaan tähän terapiabisnekseen, se on nyt kovassa nousussa", ja sitten on alettu tarjoamaan näitä terapiapalveluita ym.

Tuo Joko Beckin oma koulukunta on käsittääkseni melko tiiviisti yhteydessä psykoanalyyttiseen terapiaperinteeseen, esim. Barry Magid vaikuttaisi olevan vaikuttaja Joko Beckin Tavallinen mieli-koulukunnassa sekä psykoanalyysissa. Muistuu mieleen Daniel Ingramin haastattelu Buddhist Geeks podcastissa (taisi olla tämä jakso), jossa hän sanoo että kun ihmiset menevät retriitille ja kuvittelevat että kyse on jonkinlaisesta psykoterapiasta, niin ne varsinaiset opetukset saattavat mennä täysin ohi.

Tuosta tunteiden jakautumisesta kehollisiin tuntemuksiin ja ajatuksiin tulee myös mieleen Antonio Damasion neurologiset teoriat. Onkohan tämä ajatus otettu näistä Damasion populaareista tiedekirjoista, vai löytyykö vastaavanlainen ajatus zen-perinteestä? Toisekseen herää kysymys, että onko tuo ajatus edes lopulta mitenkään hyödyllinen? Tulee mieleen, että tässä saattaa olla kyse jonkinlaisesta harhaanjohtavasta wau-efektistä, eli kun opettaja kertoo oppilaalle jonkun syvälliseltä tuntuvan "salaisuuden", kuten "tunteet koostuvat oikeasti kehollisista tuntemuksista sekä ajatuksista", niin oppilas tutkii asiaa ja huomaa: "Wau! Näinhän tämä onkin! Enpä ole koskaan tullut ajatelleeksi! Tuo opettaja on kyllä todella viisas kun tietää tällaisen salaisuuden". Tällainen yllättävä löytä voi saada oppilaassa aikaan voimakkaan myönteisen tunnereaktion, eli tämän wau-ilmiön, mutta se ei silti tarkoita että tällaisen "salaisuuden" oppiminen käytännössä hyödyttää oppilasta millään tavalla.

Tällainen wau-ilmiö voi hämätä oppilasta luulemaan, että hän on saavuttanut jotain merkittävää, vaikka käytännössä mikään ei muutu. Esim. jos auto suistuu lumisella ja jäisellä tiellä ojaan, ja siinä vieressä ihmettelee että "mitenkäs se auto nyt saadaan sieltä ylös ja liikkeelle", niin jos viereen tulee mystinen opettaja joka kertoo että auto koostuu oikeasti pelkästään energiasta, ja että auton molekyylit ovat peräisin miljoonia vuosia sitten tapahtuneista tähtien räjähdyksistä, niin se voi tuntua syvälliseltä ja merkittävältä, mutta se ei mitenkään auta saamaan sitä autoa ylös sieltä ojasta.

Tästä tekstistä taisi tulla pidempi kuin tuosta alkuperäisestä linkitetystä tekstistä...

Lueskelen vähän lisää, niin ehkä sieltä löytyy lisää mielenkiintoista.

MarkoH
Viestit: 891
Liittynyt: 22 Tammi 2014 03:15

Re: Joko Beck

ViestiKirjoittaja MarkoH » 25 Joulu 2014 19:39

tommi kirjoitti:Englanninkielisissä keskusteluissa esiintyy termi "tl;dr", joka on lyhennys sanoisa "Too long; didn't read", eli "liian pitkä; en jaksanut lukea", jolla viitataan siihen että jos linkattu teksti on liian pitkä, niin monet eivät jaksa edes aloittaa sen lukemista. Tässäkin tapauksessa näennäinen kiinnostuksen puute saattaa johtua tästä ilmiöstä. Keskustelu voisi ehkä houkuttaa useampia, jos linkitetystä tekstistä laittaisi jonkun yhteenvedon, vaikka ne ydinkohdat jotka itsestä tuntuivat olennaisilta.

Juu voi olla. Toisaalta ajattelin niin, että jos seurataan vaan hyvää tarinaa, niin ei ehkä kannata kertoa vaan juonen kohokohtia, niinkuin se kaikki muu siinä ympärillä olisi toisarvoista ja merkityksetöntä ja irrotettavissa niistä "syvällisistä totuuksista". Mutta koska tämä ei selvästikään toimi näin, niin voin tehdä tuon yhteenvedon. Mutta myöhemmin, ja vastailen ajatuksiisi kanssa myöhemmin, koska tänään on tullut ajateltua ja luettua jo liikaa buddhalaisuutta. Ja välissä oli kolmen tunnin sähkökatkokin... Päivän Chuck Norris-annos jäi saamatta. Mutta lueskele sinä lisää omaan tahtiisi.

MarkoH
Viestit: 891
Liittynyt: 22 Tammi 2014 03:15

Re: Joko Beck

ViestiKirjoittaja MarkoH » 26 Joulu 2014 19:11

tommi kirjoitti:Tuossa alkupuolella, jota ehdin lukemaan, puhutaan kuinka tunteet ovat yhdistelmä kehollisia tuntemuksia ja ajatuksia. Tästä heräsi ajatus, että onko Zenissä kyse tällaisesta tunteiden "käsittelemisestä"? Puhutaanko esim. zen-perinteen teksteissä tällaisesta? Vai onko tämä kenties jonkinlainen pyrkimys hakeutua nykyään vallitsevan psykoterapiakulttuurin "imuun"?

Siinä zenissä, mihin minä olen tutustunut, ei ole puhuttu eikä kirjoitettu näistä. Se kuulostaa pikemminkin siltä psykologialta, jota olen oppinut vihaamaan. En usko että tässä on pyrkimystä hakeutua mihinkään imuun, jos sellaista on, vaan vain vaihteeksi yritys kokeilla erilaista (no ainakin minulle erilaista jos ei muille) lähestymistapaa. Ehkä se on myös kyllästymistä Freudin ja kumppaneiden sekoiluun, joka on aina muistuttanut enemmän uskontoa kuin mitään muuta.
Minua on jo pidempään ihmetyttänyt miten evlut-kirkon piirissä harrastetaan kaikenlaista keskusteluterapiaa ja muuta vastaavaa. Käsittääksen Jeesus tai Paavali tai kukaan muukaan ei raamatussa sano: "Totisesti, parisuhdeongelmiasi tulee sinun freudilaisessa keskusteluterapiassa käsittelemän". Miksi siis kirkko harrastaa tällaisia terapioita ym.? Tulee mieleen, että kirkon parissa on jossain vaiheessa huomattu, kuinka ympäröivä yhteiskunta on innostunut tällaisista terapioista, ja siellä on todettu: "Voi hitsi! Meillä on tarjota ihmisille pelkkää raamatusta löytyvää taikauskoista hölynpölyä! Meidän pitää välittömästi lähteä mukaan tähän terapiabisnekseen, se on nyt kovassa nousussa", ja sitten on alettu tarjoamaan näitä terapiapalveluita ym.

Kirkossa on ehkä oivallettu, että usko Jeesukseen henkilökohtaisena pelastajana, ei ehkä ratkaisekaan kaikkia ihmisen henkilökohtaisia ongelmia, vaan tarvitaan pitkää terapiaa. Kirkon vastuulla on, jälleen kerran, että tuossa "kristillisessä terapiassa" olisi jotain järkeäkin. Miten se selviää tuosta vastuusta, on mielenkiintoista nähdä. Kaverini on alkanut käymään kirkon psykologilla parisuhdeterapian merkeissä, eikä ainakaan toistaiseksi ole valittanut.
Muistuu mieleen Daniel Ingramin haastattelu Buddhist Geeks podcastissa (taisi olla tämä jakso), jossa hän sanoo että kun ihmiset menevät retriitille ja kuvittelevat että kyse on jonkinlaisesta psykoterapiasta, niin ne varsinaiset opetukset saattavat mennä täysin ohi.

Taitava opettaja osaa erottaa psykoterapian buddhalaisuuden harjoituksesta, ja myös nähdä niiden yhtäläisyydet, mitä ne voisivat oppia toisiltaan jos voisivat. Siksi ongelmia ei saisi tulla.
Tuosta tunteiden jakautumisesta kehollisiin tuntemuksiin ja ajatuksiin tulee myös mieleen Antonio Damasion neurologiset teoriat. Onkohan tämä ajatus otettu näistä Damasion populaareista tiedekirjoista, vai löytyykö vastaavanlainen ajatus zen-perinteestä?

Ei kummastakaan. Se on otettu kokemuksesta.
Toisekseen herää kysymys, että onko tuo ajatus edes lopulta mitenkään hyödyllinen? Tulee mieleen, että tässä saattaa olla kyse jonkinlaisesta harhaanjohtavasta wau-efektistä, eli kun opettaja kertoo oppilaalle jonkun syvälliseltä tuntuvan "salaisuuden", kuten "tunteet koostuvat oikeasti kehollisista tuntemuksista sekä ajatuksista", niin oppilas tutkii asiaa ja huomaa: "Wau! Näinhän tämä onkin! Enpä ole koskaan tullut ajatelleeksi! Tuo opettaja on kyllä todella viisas kun tietää tällaisen salaisuuden". Tällainen yllättävä löytä voi saada oppilaassa aikaan voimakkaan myönteisen tunnereaktion, eli tämän wau-ilmiön, mutta se ei silti tarkoita että tällaisen "salaisuuden" oppiminen käytännössä hyödyttää oppilasta millään tavalla.

Jos ajattelee että kyseessä on "syvällinen salaisuus", on edelleen yhtä hukassa sen kuulemisen jälkeen kuin sitä ennen. Mutta jos asia nähdään omakohtaisesti (lue: koetaan) samalla kun nuo sanat ("tunteet jakautuvat kehollisiin tuntemuksiin ja ajatuksiin") lausutaan, tilanne on aivan erilainen. Opettajan tehtävä on sanoa asia niin, ettei sano mitään ylimääräistä. Oppilaan tehtävä on luottaa siihen että mitään ylimääräistä ei sanota. Siis tässä Joko Beckin tapauksessa, en tosin tiedä millaisia kirjoja hän kirjoittaa. Mutta esim. Brad Warnerin opetustyyli on usein pikemminkin päinvastainen. Molemmat käyvät.
Tällainen wau-ilmiö voi hämätä oppilasta luulemaan, että hän on saavuttanut jotain merkittävää, vaikka käytännössä mikään ei muutu. Esim. jos auto suistuu lumisella ja jäisellä tiellä ojaan, ja siinä vieressä ihmettelee että "mitenkäs se auto nyt saadaan sieltä ylös ja liikkeelle", niin jos viereen tulee mystinen opettaja joka kertoo että auto koostuu oikeasti pelkästään energiasta, ja että auton molekyylit ovat peräisin miljoonia vuosia sitten tapahtuneista tähtien räjähdyksistä, niin se voi tuntua syvälliseltä ja merkittävältä, mutta se ei mitenkään auta saamaan sitä autoa ylös sieltä ojasta.

Ongelman ydin ei ole se, että lukija tai harjoittaja ottaisi Joko Beckin sanat "syvällisenä viisautena", tai "pinnallisena bullshittinä", tai "naisen logiikkana", vaan se että hän on ylipäänsä kiinnostunut "syvällisistä viisauksista", olivat ne sitten mitä tahansa.

Avatar
tommi
Viestit: 639
Liittynyt: 09 Helmi 2013 22:10
titteli: über geek
Viesti:

Re: Joko Beck

ViestiKirjoittaja tommi » 26 Joulu 2014 22:27

MarkoH kirjoitti:Siinä zenissä, mihin minä olen tutustunut, ei ole puhuttu eikä kirjoitettu näistä. Se kuulostaa pikemminkin siltä psykologialta, jota olen oppinut vihaamaan. En usko että tässä on pyrkimystä hakeutua mihinkään imuun, jos sellaista on, vaan vain vaihteeksi yritys kokeilla erilaista (no ainakin minulle erilaista jos ei muille) lähestymistapaa.

Tuo "erilaisen lähestymistavan kokeilu" kuulostaa minusta siltä, että se voisi olla ihan sama asia kuin "imuun hakeutuminen". "Tää meidän juttu ei oo tarpeeksi myyvä, meidän täytyy kokeilla erilaista lähestymistapaa meidän brändäyksessä". Mutta oikeasti kyseessä ei välttämättä ole mikään noin tietoisesti tehty juttu, vaan ehkä siellä on jotenkin kyllästytty vanhaan ja innostuttu joistain uusista jutuista, koska ne uudet jotenkin tuntuu "jännemmiltä" tms., ja sitä kautta sitä "imua" haetaan osittain tiedostamatta.

MarkoH kirjoitti:Taitava opettaja osaa erottaa psykoterapian buddhalaisuuden harjoituksesta, ja myös nähdä niiden yhtäläisyydet, mitä ne voisivat oppia toisiltaan jos voisivat. Siksi ongelmia ei saisi tulla.

Se Daniel Ingramin viesti oli muistaakseni sellainen, että sillä opettajalla saattaa olla erityisen haastava tehtävä joidenkin ihmisten kohdalla, koska jos opettaja sanoo: "Ja nyt istutaan alas ja seurataan hengityksen kulkua", niin joillain ihmisillä voi olla niin pinttynyt käsitys että kyseessä on jonkinlainen terapia, että he kuulevat tuon ohjeen mielessään: "Ja nyt istutaan alas ja seurataan hengityksen kulkua... Ja käsitellään sitä vaikeaa äitisuhdetta, joka on syynä kaikkiin ongelmiimme". Se opettaja ei edes välttämättä tiedä että jotkut oppilaat laittavat omassa mielessään omia lisäyksiään noihin opetuksiin.

MarkoH kirjoitti:Jos ajattelee että kyseessä on "syvällinen salaisuus", on edelleen yhtä hukassa sen kuulemisen jälkeen kuin sitä ennen. Mutta jos asia nähdään omakohtaisesti (lue: koetaan) samalla kun nuo sanat ("tunteet jakautuvat kehollisiin tuntemuksiin ja ajatuksiin") lausutaan, tilanne on aivan erilainen.

Ajattelisin, että kuitenkaan omakohtainen kokemus ei vielä sinällään merkitse mitään. Kuvitellaan tilanne, jossa potilas menee lääkärille ja lääkäri näyttää potilaalle että tällä on syöpäkasvain tietyssä kohdassa kehoa:
Lääkäri: "Ja se kasvain on tässä, jos tökkäät tähän kylkiluiden alapuolelle sormella niin voit itse tuntea sen"
Potilas: "Joo, tosiaan! Tämä ei tosiaankaan ole pelkkää teoriaa ja röntgenkuvia, pystyn todellakin tuntemaan sen omakohtaisesti! Nyt tiedän miten syöpä parannetaan..."
Tommi kurkistaa huoneeseen: "Juu ei — et tosiaankaan tiedä yhtään mitään syövän parantamisesta..."

Ihmisillä on ilmeisesti jonkinlainen keräilyvaisto, jotkut keräilee postimerkkejä ja melkein kaikki keräilevät pieniä nippelitiedonpalasia. Kun omakohtaisesti kokee tuollaisen opetuksen tunteiden koostumuksesta, niin siinä saattaa tuollainen keräilyvaisto herätä ja tulee samanlainen tunne kuin olisi saanut kokoelmaansa uuden postimerkin. Sillä ei välttämättä ole merkitystä onko kyseessä syvällinen salaisuus, vai ei-syvällinen salaisuus vai peräti ei-syvällinen kaikkien tietämä ei-salaisuus.

Vaikka kuinka omakohtaisesti kokisi tuon tunteiden jakautumisen kehollisiin tuntemuksiin ja ajatuksiin, niin ei sillä kokemuksella tai tiedolla silti välttämättä tee mitään.

MarkoH
Viestit: 891
Liittynyt: 22 Tammi 2014 03:15

Re: Joko Beck

ViestiKirjoittaja MarkoH » 27 Joulu 2014 06:13

tommi kirjoitti:
MarkoH kirjoitti:Siinä zenissä, mihin minä olen tutustunut, ei ole puhuttu eikä kirjoitettu näistä. Se kuulostaa pikemminkin siltä psykologialta, jota olen oppinut vihaamaan. En usko että tässä on pyrkimystä hakeutua mihinkään imuun, jos sellaista on, vaan vain vaihteeksi yritys kokeilla erilaista (no ainakin minulle erilaista jos ei muille) lähestymistapaa.

Tuo "erilaisen lähestymistavan kokeilu" kuulostaa minusta siltä, että se voisi olla ihan sama asia kuin "imuun hakeutuminen". "Tää meidän juttu ei oo tarpeeksi myyvä, meidän täytyy kokeilla erilaista lähestymistapaa meidän brändäyksessä". Mutta oikeasti kyseessä ei välttämättä ole mikään noin tietoisesti tehty juttu, vaan ehkä siellä on jotenkin kyllästytty vanhaan ja innostuttu joistain uusista jutuista, koska ne uudet jotenkin tuntuu "jännemmiltä" tms., ja sitä kautta sitä "imua" haetaan osittain tiedostamatta.

Minusta kyse ei ole kummastakaan. Joko Beckiä ei tunnu kiinnostavan sen enempää "jännemmyys" kuin "imukaan".

tommi kirjoitti:
MarkoH kirjoitti:Taitava opettaja osaa erottaa psykoterapian buddhalaisuuden harjoituksesta, ja myös nähdä niiden yhtäläisyydet, mitä ne voisivat oppia toisiltaan jos voisivat. Siksi ongelmia ei saisi tulla.

Se Daniel Ingramin viesti oli muistaakseni sellainen, että sillä opettajalla saattaa olla erityisen haastava tehtävä joidenkin ihmisten kohdalla, koska jos opettaja sanoo: "Ja nyt istutaan alas ja seurataan hengityksen kulkua", niin joillain ihmisillä voi olla niin pinttynyt käsitys että kyseessä on jonkinlainen terapia, että he kuulevat tuon ohjeen mielessään: "Ja nyt istutaan alas ja seurataan hengityksen kulkua... Ja käsitellään sitä vaikeaa äitisuhdetta, joka on syynä kaikkiin ongelmiimme". Se opettaja ei edes välttämättä tiedä että jotkut oppilaat laittavat omassa mielessään omia lisäyksiään noihin opetuksiin.

Jep, tuo voi olla oikea ongelma. Ihmiset eivät halua kuulla sitä oikeasti kuulevat, vaan jotain mitä haluavat kuulla. Mutta miten paljon opettaja voi tehdä tällaisten ihmisten eteen, ja miten paljon kannattaa yrittää tehdä? He eivät vaan osaa kuunnella! Pitäisikö opettajan neuvoa vaikkapa: "ps. se istuminen sitten muuten tarkoittaa istumista, ja hengityksen seuraaminen on hengityksen seuraamista, ok? got it? ...eikö?"

tommi kirjoitti:
MarkoH kirjoitti:Jos ajattelee että kyseessä on "syvällinen salaisuus", on edelleen yhtä hukassa sen kuulemisen jälkeen kuin sitä ennen. Mutta jos asia nähdään omakohtaisesti (lue: koetaan) samalla kun nuo sanat ("tunteet jakautuvat kehollisiin tuntemuksiin ja ajatuksiin") lausutaan, tilanne on aivan erilainen.

Ajattelisin, että kuitenkaan omakohtainen kokemus ei vielä sinällään merkitse mitään. Kuvitellaan tilanne, jossa potilas menee lääkärille ja lääkäri näyttää potilaalle että tällä on syöpäkasvain tietyssä kohdassa kehoa:
Lääkäri: "Ja se kasvain on tässä, jos tökkäät tähän kylkiluiden alapuolelle sormella niin voit itse tuntea sen"
Potilas: "Joo, tosiaan! Tämä ei tosiaankaan ole pelkkää teoriaa ja röntgenkuvia, pystyn todellakin tuntemaan sen omakohtaisesti! Nyt tiedän miten syöpä parannetaan..."
Tommi kurkistaa huoneeseen: "Juu ei — et tosiaankaan tiedä yhtään mitään syövän parantamisesta..."

Homman juju on siinä, että "minä" ei tee sitä. Minun ei siis tarvitse tietää miten se tehdään, samaan tapaan kun potilaan omat sormet ovat vaan tiellä kun kirurgi tekee syöpäleikkausta. Mutta jos kiistän koko ongelman todellisuuden enkä kohtaa sitä, sanon että se on pelkkää teoriaa, kipuihini voi ihan hyvin olla jokin muukin syy kunhan vain keksin sen, kirurgin on hyvin vaikea tehdä mitään.

Ihmisillä on ilmeisesti jonkinlainen keräilyvaisto, jotkut keräilee postimerkkejä ja melkein kaikki keräilevät pieniä nippelitiedonpalasia. Kun omakohtaisesti kokee tuollaisen opetuksen tunteiden koostumuksesta, niin siinä saattaa tuollainen keräilyvaisto herätä ja tulee samanlainen tunne kuin olisi saanut kokoelmaansa uuden postimerkin. Sillä ei välttämättä ole merkitystä onko kyseessä syvällinen salaisuus, vai ei-syvällinen salaisuus vai peräti ei-syvällinen kaikkien tietämä ei-salaisuus.

Oppiminen on siis näille ihmisille kuin postimerkkeilyä, niinkö? Eräs, jonka nimeä en viitsi mainita, koska tiedän ettet tykkää hänestä, kysyi: "Onko olemassa oppimista, joka ei ole vain tiedon lisäämistä?".

Vaikka kuinka omakohtaisesti kokisi tuon tunteiden jakautumisen kehollisiin tuntemuksiin ja ajatuksiin, niin ei sillä kokemuksella tai tiedolla silti välttämättä tee mitään.

Kuka tietää?
Viimeksi muokannut MarkoH, 27 Joulu 2014 06:53. Yhteensä muokattu 1 kertaa.

MarkoH
Viestit: 891
Liittynyt: 22 Tammi 2014 03:15

Re: Joko Beck

ViestiKirjoittaja MarkoH » 27 Joulu 2014 06:52

No niin, tässä se tulee, tommin ehdotuksesta. Olennaisimmat osat antamani linkin takaa löytyvästä tekstistä. Siis minun mielestäni! Jos tämä viesti tuntuu pitkältä lukea, niin kannattaa muistaa että materiaalia oli yli 200 sivua... elämää ei voi tiivistää ihan pariin riviin, ja se on hyvä se.




*

Joko: Well, I want you to do something quite simple at first, because we can then talk about it. All practice just consists of maintaining awareness of everything. That means everything external to you, everything in the body, and everything in the mind. And that covers about everything.

*

Joko: Now that in a way is very simple. It really means to do nothing. But for a human being, it is not simple. It helps sometimes to follow your breath. Just feel it, in other words. Don't try to do anything with it. Just feel the breath, but not so strongly that you shut out, like the sound of cars or whatever is going on outside.

*

Joko: Well, it's not a problem. It's just part of your sitting. You know, there are no problems in sitting, because we're just looking at whatever occurs. OK? We're not trying to have a smooth, calm, perfect sitting. We're trying to see ourselves as we are at any given moment.

*

Joko: You see, that's imaginative thinking, and that's fine. But when your personal stuff comes up, just notice that it comes up and then just let it go, and go back to your work, OK? You see, the imaginative use of the mind is perfectly healthy and normal. But it's the self-centred thinking that we want to be aware of and just let it go. OK?


*
Joko: Well, the point is, we always have to be practical.

*

Joko: And you may wonder why I talk so much about this. But see, it's these emotional reactions that block the clarity of life. And we need to know that and what to do about it.

*

Tom: It seems to me they must be related to clinging, what the Buddha was really talking about.

Joko: Oh yeah. Absolutely. A lot of people practise for 20 years and still don't know what to do about this sort of thing. So their practice stays pretty cloudy. So that's what I'm talking about, OK?

*

Joko: Yeah, and it means that what happens isn't really what upsets you. It's your system that gets activated by what happens. What it [this practice] takes away from people eventually is our human desire to blame something or someone for what happens to us. See what I mean?

*

Joko: Well, if you want to put it in older terms, your true self, which is your self free of attachments, would never get upset by anything. It would just be interested in the situation and handle it. But it wouldn't be upset. In a way, that's what we working for. OK. That make sense?

*

Tom: Yes, I know that's the aim. I'm probably not very good at that yet, as you point out.

Joko: No. But you have to do thousands of these. I mean, I hate to sound discouraging.

Tom: No, it's not discouraging. This is something I feel I CAN do. I don't mind a long program, so to speak.

Joko: Well, the enlightened state is one where we're more or less free of these reactive responses. And it is hard work, and it takes a long time. But it's not impossible. And that's what practice is, because it's better for you, but it's also better for those around you.

*

Joko: That's the way Zen practice teaches us. To learn from our life. Instead of trying to cover up what's happening. We have various ways of covering up things, as I'm sure you're discovering.

*

Joko: [laughs] Funny. Yeah, well I'm not saying not to have self-confidence. But that's not the same thing as believing what we think.

*

Tom: That's kind of a tough one to embrace.

Joko: I know! [laughs] That's why practice is difficult. See?

*

Joko: Just feel it. There's nothing that's a problem, Tom. Nothing. Just be aware. What could be a problem? See, it's all just life.

*

Tom: Yeah, that's right. It is. But I've had a lot of experience of regarding things as problems to be fixed.

Joko: Everyone does. That's why in general, life doesn't work very well.


*

Tom: Yeah, but only in order to get rid of the illusions?!

Joko: No, it's not so much to get rid of them. See, that in Buddhist terms that they're empty.

Tom: Ah.

Joko: There's nothing really to get rid of. We don't say we have to get rid of nothing. See?

*

Tom: Something came up I wanted to ask you about. I guess the question is how does the practice focus on ethics? Because I..

Joko: It's nothing but ethics.

*

Joko: See, what I'm talking about on the phone mostly is your actual personal practice. And in the long run, that's what matters the most. But sometimes you need a lot of things, you know what I mean? Sure the main thing we want to do in life is, in old-fashioned Buddhist terms, is would be to save all sentient beings, which doesn't mean to run up and down the street saving them. It means, that the way you live your life, is always beneficial to others.

*

Joko: Yeah, on the other hand, practice is not about saying, "I should be a kind person." It's about being a genuinely kind person. Not putting up a lot of 'shoulds' for yourself. Because that's not really very genuine.

Tom: I think that tends to backfire anyway.

Joko: Yeah, it does backfire. So, we sort of take the long way around, but where we're heading is certainly to be a very genuine, basically kind person.

*

Joko: Well, I'm just saying that most people think that they have to be good in the obvious ways, but it doesn't dawn on them what this really means: it means responsibility for everything, even people you don't know. So, that's a big order.

*

Joko: Well, remember: I'm not just listening to your stuff. I'm trying to have you begin to learn something about your life. OK?

*

Tom: I didn't even see the thing as sticking out. I thought this is just normal, like this is just a bad day.

Joko: Well, there's no such thing as a bad day.

*

Joko: Well, when we have anything physical wrong with us, we do all we can to remedy it. Because the body is what we live through. But there's a difference between that and being emotional about it. If we're emotional, we need to practise with that. You know, I'm getting old too. All sorts of little things are beginning to go. But there's a difference between working with that, and feeling there's something wrong. It's just life doing its thing. So what kind of arthritis do you think this is?

*

Joko: It may not be. I'm just saying that with anything like that, you want to look into every possible approach, without getting morbid about it. Then just do your best, you know.

Tom: Right.

Joko: But that's different than thinking there's something WRONG. There's just life doing what it's doing.

*

Joko: Well, I meant, you know, any kind of a technical book is fine. But when it come to books about...

Tom: Psychology.

Joko: [chuckle] Right. Remember, all sorts of people write books. So you really... you can try things from books, you can learn from them, but the only thing that really is a test of anything is what happens in your life from doing it. See what I mean?

*

Joko: I had a telephone call once from a lady in Kansas, and she'd been reading books all her life and never had a teacher. And they were about to hospitalise her. Her mind was so screwed up. She'd read this term 'no thought' in some Zen book. So she'd been trying never to have any thoughts. And she'd almost driven herself crazy. [laughs]

*

Joko: Well, the whole thing in life is to experience what it is you experience in the moment. And if it's an emotion, you have know that you feel that. That you feel angry, you feel unhappy, you feel whatever you feel. And practice is simply to experience that without trying to fix it or change it. Just rest in it.

*

Tom: I had a nice metaphor of that this week: I got onto the internet. Plugged into the internet. My word, that's a big world out there!

Joko: Sounds like fun.

Tom: Stepping into infinity. It really is.

Joko: I wish I knew how to do that computer stuff. I think I'd enjoy that.

*

Joko: Well, because the levels of ourself we're dealing with are not the superficial logical levels. You know, there's a certain amount of chaos in any human being. And as that boils around and surfaces one way or another, all we can do is to be aware of that. And that's not necessarily always going to feel good. But it's freeing. You understand? Joko: Well, because the levels of ourself we're dealing with are not the superficial logical levels. You know, there's a certain amount of chaos in any human being. And as that boils around and surfaces one way or another, all we can do is to be aware of that. And that's not necessarily always going to feel good. But it's freeing. You understand?

*

Joko: Well, that's what I'm talking about. But that's you, see? Life itself is really no problem. But if we're rooted in this belief system or that belief system, then life is nothing but problems. The key to a free happy life, is to root out the systems.

*

Joko: It's like a koan. I just want this to kind of slip through your days and your sitting, OK? And the question that you stated is - or I'm stating it partly - is: why does it bother you when you lose a little bit of your control?

*

Joko: Yeah. Well, you don't HAVE to do this but there's something in here that will be useful to you.

*

Joko: You might have an idea: I always have to be on time. Or I always have to be a kind, thoughtful person.

Tom: So these are self-constructed things based on that material.

Joko: Yeah. Right. I want you to see that this isn't exactly necessarily what you want to do with your life. Some of it may be. But some it is just almost a mechanical construction.

*

Tom: If I'm a failure, then we wouldn't have any money in the family. And then I go down that path of consequences. And that's probably not what you mean, is it?

Joko: No. Failure is the way you see yourself. See, that's got nothing to do with what's really happening.

Tom: Ah, OK. So I was operating on it the wrong way.

Joko: There are people that in the eyes of the world are very successful. And they still see themselves as failures.

*

Tom: You mean the actual problem in life.

Joko: Well, yeah, that's all you can ever do. And you don't have to like that problem. But that's different from personally being upset by it. You see the difference?

*

Tom: I just have to tell you something I saw on the wall. You know mottoes and things that people put up on the walls. I was in a house with a traditional Irish family yesterday. And I saw one of these embroidered things. What it said was: Lord give me patience... but, please hurry.

Joko: Yes, that's cute. Welllll, relate it to what we're doing. That's wonderful. Yeah OK, Tom, that's all I'm going to say about that. Because I think you see where to go with it now? See, it's a very rich vein.

*

Joko: Yeah, that's the first thing. For instance, if somebody makes you angry or hurts your feelings, the human natural thing to do is to feel is that person is responsible for your misery. Now, he isn't. All he's done is to attack your list.

*

Joko: Yeah, well something bothers you, it's pointing to a requirement, see?

*

Tom: It's like that Conan Dole story, where they hid a letter just by leaving it in the open. Nobody could see it, because it was so obvious.

Joko: Right.

*

Joko: Well, it's not a cure-all. But it gives you an approach to your life that makes sense. See what I mean?

*

Tom: Yeah! It seems to me to be a lot clearer and easier to understand than, I don't know, Huan Suan talking about pink clouds in the 9th century, and things like that -- I have to admit.

Joko: Well, if you work this way long enough, you'll find that mostly they're saying: look, look to see what's going on. Don't get so caught in your head. But what we're doing enables people to understand, you know, how to work with that.

*

Tom: Well, I can't say I've got any problems, except for the usual ones of life. [laughs]

Joko: Well, life keeps presenting problems, an arena for learning. So it will always present you with the next thing that you need to learn.

Tom: Particularly today! [laughs]

Joko: Well, that's what it does. We don't always like it, but when you take this approach, it begins to be rather interesting. OK? All right. Any other questions?

Tom: No, not really. I'm just checking...

Joko: Well, you will have questions. And then we'll talk about them.

*

Joko: [laughs] Uh-huh. But anyway. Just keep sitting and try to keep feeling this feeling you're feeling. But feel it. Don't think about it. OK?

*

Joko: ...So don't expect it to be always nice. It's not going to be. But it will clarify your life, and eventually it will be, you know, much nicer, really.

*

Joko: Well, it's not good to talk about practice to other people. I could explain it a little bit, but at least not today. I would suggest you just keep going, Tom. You know there's a point at which you begin to get what practice is. It's a very different thing than not getting it.

Tom: Yeaaaah?

Joko: That make sense to you? I mean, where you begin to look at every situation in your life as practice. That's a very different way to live your life.

*

Tom: No, actually. It seems on such a fruitful path, I don't wonder about like -- where is this leading? -- particularly. I just think it's OK to keep on going like...

Joko: It's leading to where you already are.

Tom: [loud laugh]

Joko: [loud laugh, continuing]

*

Joko: Well, the requirement is artificial. That's not real. How other people should be is none of your business, really. They're just doing what they're doing. When it bothers you, that's what makes is practice -- see?

*

Tom: I don't mean really like a god on Olympus. But that kind of situation, where interesting things happen, and you're involved in squabbles but you always win, and you don't run out of money or food, and there's lots of lively things going on. And you live forever.

Joko: That's like a daydream.

Tom: That's in the background. It's weird that such a thing could be in the background.

Joko: [chuckles]

Tom: Where would that come from?

Joko: Well, I don't want to get into all that. But your job is just to notice it and come back to what's really real, OK?

*

Joko: Well a good student is one who knows how to keep practising, in the sense of maintaining some sort of awareness, even when the going gets heavy.

*

Joko: See, if you have a mind and emotions that are ripping you apart all the time, you're not in good shape to do anything.

Tom: Like driving with the brake on, like somebody said.

Joko: Yeah, right. So this isn't some escape from life. It's to get you so you can live your life. That make sense?

*

Joko: Right. There's nothing to worry about. So in some odd way, it's the only place you ever are at peace.

Tom: In the middle of your trouble.

Joko: If you learn anything about that, you're doing very well. But just begin to investigate that. You know, people are always looking for the place where there will be peace. And it's of course always right under your nose.

*

Joko: I didn't say not to try to make things more the way you want them. That's fine. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that any given moment, life is the way it is. You can do battle with it, if you want to. But if you do that battle with the idea that can only be happy if it turns out the way you want, then you're in trouble.

*

Joko: Yeah, that doesn't mean not to have goals that you try to reach. But it's not with the idea that if I don't reach that goal, then it's awful. We're not going to reach all our goals. We reach some of them, and some we never will reach. And there's some parts of life that are inevitable, such as that you're getting older.

*

Joko: You don't have to understand it. What you have to do is to see anything as thoughts that are floating around. And then just sit and let that sensation just be. See, we always think we have to fix something or understand it. And we don't.

*

Tom: The comment you made last time, that if anything needs fixing, it will fix itself — that was if, presumably under conditions of awareness...

Joko: Uh-huh.

Tom: It wasn't just that it would automatically happen?

Joko: No. I'm saying your job is to maintain awareness.

*

Joko: Well, it's the whole secret of practice. See, we're brought up to feel that if there's something wrong with us or wrong with our life, we have to fix it.

Tom: I think you pointed out that shelves groan with the weight of how-to-fix-everything books.

Joko: Right. And it doesn't mean not to do your best. I'm not saying that. But there's a different basic understanding that develops in a mature sitter.

*

Tom: Punishing attitude. You mean people do this as a kind of whip?

Joko: Well, you can punish yourself: I HAVE to stay with this moment.

Tom: Oh, I see.

Joko: Then you really added a thought onto just doing it.

*

Joko: No. No. The word stoic isn't quite it. A stoic sort of implies: I'm putting up with all this.

*

Joko: Well, it's an old koan: every day is a good day. Every day is a holy day. And it's true. Every day is a good day. Every day is a holy day. And the only difference is that some days we like, and some days we don't like. Every day is a good day.

Tom: So, um, what exactly? Just to be aware that..

Joko: That you like it or don't like it. You can notice all that. I didn't say you had to like it.

*

Joko: Well, you take any pain. I mean, let's forget migraines. But any, say an illness. Suppose you have a sore throat. What is the practice on that?

Tom: Well just be intimately and intricately aware of all the feelings and nuances of...

Joko: Sensations, and just to leave them alone. When you leave them alone, there's a kind of a pressure taken off. Migraines are about pressure. You remove the pressure from the migraine and just let it be. It tends to begin to solve itself. It's very difficult, because they hurt so much.

*

Joko: Try to take the viewpoint that the migraine is not your enemy. It's something the body's creating for some good reason. And your job is just to be intimate with it. To be friendly. Not be to wanting to get rid of it.

Tom: OK.

Joko: It's very hard.

*

Joko: It's more the attitude that illness is not our enemy. Illness is always a teacher. And unless you get intimate and friendly with it, you can't hear the teaching. See what I mean?

Tom: That's a radically different point of view than most people I know, including me, have.

*

Joko: I'm not saying that by practising, we avoid illness. But it's more to see illness as a teacher. And I will admit that when you work with these things, you tend to be sick less. Because anything that's conscious is not as hard on the body. That make sense?

*

Joko: Well, only an "I" would ask that question.

Tom: [loud laugh] Yeah, I guess there's no answer to that one. That's true. But it is a question that does pop up.

Joko: I'm not going to answer that, because it's not a real question, see? There is no "I". So when something that doesn't exist asks a question, we just ignore it.

Tom: [more laughter] Well, it's good to hear that from time to time.

*

Tom: I've got that, but I don't seem to be trapped by the other ones mentioned, or that you've mentioned before. Not so much. But that one certainly gets me all right. As I say, it's built in, this business of wanting to fix things.

Joko: I call it ambition.

*

Joko: If it doesn't work, it just doesn't work. All you can do is just to fix it, see? In that sense, it's OK to fix it. But when you try to fix everything in life, it's different than that. You see what I'm saying? You get that? I mean, if something's broken down, sure you try to fix it.

Tom: It's all the attitude on top of it.

Joko: It's the attitude that this shouldn't be happening.

*

Joko: Welllll, one reason we sit, is we get more and more sensitive to all this stuff we're doing. Just gets more and more obvious.

*

Tom: It's difficult at the beginning to believe that it's going to work. Or it seems like the most boring thing you can imagine.

Joko: Right!

Tom: And the last thing you want to do, etc, etc.

Joko: Right, absolutely.

Tom: But when you start doing it, it's quite the other way around.

Joko: That's right. Well, I just had to give a talk. [laughs] That's what I tell people. I tell people this thousands of times, but only a few hear it. Anyway, you're doing real well if you've heard it.

*

Joko: You know the point of all this isn't that you should have to keep calling me forever. But that you begin to know how to run your own life.

*

Joko: I didn't say it was easy. It takes years.

Tom: I beg your pardon?!

Joko: Well, it takes years.

Tom: Oh, I thought you said it takes "tears." [laughs] That might be true too.

Joko: Well, sometimes tears too. We all want something, a quick outline that we can go through, and that's it. Life isn't like that.

*

Joko: Yeah, be at peace. Everything's perfect. What else could it be?— since it is. What else could it possibly be? It just is.

Tom: [long pause] Yeaaaaah. [laughs]

Joko: [laughs] You see, the only thing that keeps you from seeing that, is you have thoughts it shouldn't be that way.

*

Tom: Yeah. Seems these fixed viewpoints are being called into doubt. Whereas before, I just automatically assumed: “Of course that's the way things are. Boom.”

Joko: Well, they're not. They're just as they are. I mean, they aren't one thing or another. They're just as they are at the given moment.

*

Tom: I just read a book called Darwin's Dangerous Idea. It's about the arguments for and against Darwinism, right? And it had a big effect on me because it left me with the impression that: oh, it could have been that way. That it all just happened to happen.

Joko: Well, remember these are belief systems. Don't believe any. Just be interested.

*

Joko: I've read lots of science books. But science — remember — doesn't deal with the truth. It deal with theories.

*

Joko: Thoughts are not the truth. Just our perception right at this second, OK? So of course the truth works, and you're beginning to head in that direction, and that's good. Good for your life.

*

Joko: I think it's fine to fight for what you think is right. OK? What's the difference between that and being angry?

Tom: Um. Well, I'm not too angry. I just feel that I want to fix this thing.

Joko: That's all right. Just go ahead and try to fix it. But see the point is, you will do all you can do, and it will work or it won't work. And if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. I mean, it's true of a lot of things in life. We'd like them to be a certain way but they just aren't going to turn out that way.

*

Joko: That's fine to have a go at it. OK? All I'm saying is if there's any anger in it, that's your practice. Because that's impractical. It doesn't help solve the situation, and it just makes you upset.

*

Joko: Uh-huh. It is nice. That in a way happens more and more as we practice. It also shows you're doing something — I hate to say "right" — but you know, you're on the right track.

*

Joko: We need to use our minds well, when we use them. But most of what we do with our minds is just a waste of time.

*

Joko: You get what I'm saying? Everything in the universe is the same thing, it has to be. That includes your thoughts.

Tom: I still have a feeling that the irritating little thoughts are rubbish to be gotten rid of.

Joko: You don't have to get rid of them. But you have to see that they are in Buddhist terms, just empty. They're just little blips. You don't really need to get rid of them, but you have to see that you don't need to hold onto them.

*

Joko: The whole trick is to let the attention be aware of everything. Instead of narrowing your life down to just what you're thinking and believing. But we do that, and we have trouble. But you seem to be developing some ability at least to watch some of what's going on.

*

Tom: Let's see, how to put this? I feel that you've answered thousands of questions and I wonder if I'm getting a blue-ribbon result. I feel I should be presenting you with better results.

Joko: Noooo. It's not about results. It's about a growing sureness about what the problem is.

*

Joko: Well that's enough. You can't look every two weeks. Especially not when you're in these busy, busy periods. So just do your best, and say: OK, this is what I'm doing. That's fine. No one's giving you a grade, OK?

Tom: Well, I feel I'm giving myself a grade.

Joko: I know. But that's your thinking, see?

*

Tom: Fifty six.

Joko: See, you're still on the edge of being young. [chuckles] But, you know, you need to be doing something.

Tom: Yeah, my wife tells me that too.

Joko: I mean, like a forty minute walk, five days a week, something like that.

Tom: Cor — that's a lot of time!

Joko: Ummmm. It takes a lot of time to have a heart attack too.

Tom: Yeah, that's a point.

*

Joko: Well, we're not talking about doing brilliantly well. We're talking about doing something. OK?

Tom: [laughs] Yes.

Joko: One of my best students here, he came up with a wonderful one. He said: "Anything that's worth doing well, is worth doing in a half-assed way."

*

Joko: Anything that's worth doing well, is worth doing in a half-assed way. In other words, if you can't walk forty minutes, five times a week, if that's what you decide to do, then cut it in half. It's still worth doing.

*

Joko: I don't think you have to be what you call a social person. But I'd hate to see you not do some social things.

Tom: Oh, I do plenty of social things. Heaps. But it's all her stuff.

Joko: You need a good friend. Not your wife, but somebody else.

*

Joko: How old are you, Tom?

Tom: Fifty-six.

Joko: Time to get busy, OK?

Tom: [laughs]. Busy, yes.

Joko: Well, you need a good old age. Old age can be hell if you don't feel well.

Tom: I see what you mean.

Joko: You've got to earn that after a certain age. OK?

*

Joko: It is a driving unit. And that's what we call the ego.

Tom: [laughs]

Joko: Well, in itself, there's nothing wrong with it. I mean, but when it dominates everything to the exclusion of seeing anything else, then there is something wrong with it.

*

Joko: Also, it's not a hard fall. It's really just something that teaches you. Because the things we encounter, as we experience them, then they become our teacher. And that's the real teacher. The outward teacher is just there for a while to let you know that. OK?

Tom: Right. Yeah, if you keep seeing each of these things coming up as a reminder, I guess.

Joko: Well they need to come up. You know, if you picture life with no problems, frankly, what would we ever learn? We wouldn't learn a thing.

*

Tom: Oh, that book I read by — what's his name? — Hagen. I read most of it in a sitting last week, and at the time I got a lot out of it, but actually thinking back, I can't remember anything. [laughs]

Joko: The kind of book you don't have to remember, but if you keep re-reading it, something settles out. I don't mean to re-read it immediately. But at some point, yeah.

*

Joko: See, my core belief is: "I am not capable. I can't do anything." Now it doesn't matter, in fact I'm very capable. But the thing we put out to the world is often the total opposite of what we really feel about ourselves.

Tom: Sure. Yeah.

Joko: I mean, very very successful people sometimes have the most devastating core belief. So, anyway... do you see enough from what I'm saying to go ahead?

*

Joko: That's the training, you know. But Americans have left out all that hard training, and we just want the thing at the end of the rainbow, without doing any of the work. The work is the thing that reduce the sense of ego, of self. The little self, I mean. So anyway, you think about that a little bit.

*

Joko: Well, all you can do is work one minute at a time. All the rest is just adding to your problems. It doesn't help you.

Tom: That's right. But every now and then it gets me.

Joko: Ah, well notice that it gets you.

Tom: [laughs]. Right.

Joko: You have a choice between just working patiently, one minute at a time, or getting excited about it.

*

Tom: That's right. I get pretty annoyed with clients who keep demanding and demanding.

Joko: Does your thinking go anything like: “I do all this for them, and I work really hard, and they really don't appreciate it anyway.”

Tom: This particular one appreciates it. But I mean — he comes here at seven o'clock in the morning to my house for a conference [laughs]! Oh dear, oh dear.

Joko: In other words, what you're really saying is that it's too much.

Tom: Yeah, it's too much. On the other hand, he's such a nice guy, but he's just over the top a bit. He's a good client. So that sort of thing gets me after a bit.

Joko: One thing to learn is to be absolutely honest about your feelings about it. It doesn't mean you have to show that to
him. But for yourself, don't kid yourself. OK? Because I think there's anger here.

*

Joko: Something like that. One of the fruits of practice over time is that we are much less reactive. And much more just open and appreciative of everything around us. You know, it's a slow business. But that's what practice is. So whatever you're learning on the cushion, you want to be sure it's pervading everything you ordinarily do. Because if that doesn't happen, you know, why bother?

*

Joko: Your little mind always wants a payoff. But the little mind lives in the past and future, which don't exist. So, interesting thing you're cooking up there.

Tom: Yeah, I know that. It's the little mind complaining.

Joko: Uh-huh. Your little mind is complaining.

Tom: “How come this isn't cool enough?” Or something?

Joko: Uh-huh. Because it's not.

*

Tom: I don't know quite what to do about this. I've been watching it.

Joko: I would suggest you do very little. Just more or less let it alone. Which means, mostly to feel it, but with as little thinking as you can manage. When you do that, it sort of takes care of itself. Try to keep your own heavy hands out of it.

*

Tom: I’m functioning, but I'm not very calm at the moment. That's for sure.

Joko: Just let that seething be seething, but without trying to put a lid on it. Do you see what I mean? Don't think. Don't think about it.


Tom: OK.

Joko: That's not easy, but you can do it.

*

Joko: It's just thoughts, really. And the antidote to thoughts is to just be. To feel your life as it really is. The core belief is just thinking. It's not some magical thing. But its beliefs are very tightly held and very deeply held.

*

Tom: Apart from that, we're having a rough but amusing time. When things go wrong a lot, equipment breaks, clients don't come in or they act up, or things just generally seem to go wrong, it seems like a bad time. But actually it's quite fun.

Joko: [chuckles] Life is never good or bad. It's just the way it is. And if you know how to practise with it, it's OK. So I hope you're beginning to get the idea.

*

Joko: I think about my work all day. So why can't you think about your work all day?

Tom: I suppose you do. Yeah.

Joko: You see, there's a difference between thinking about your work, which is necessary, and obsessing about it. What's the difference?

Tom: I guess in obsessing, you're going in useless loops.

Joko: Useless... see, we all have to think about our work. But there's a difference between thinking that results in something, or might result in something, and just fruitless just going over and over... worry.

*

Joko: Right. Life is always going up and down. Always going well, it never will. But we become comfortable with that, the more practice.

Tom: But maybe that's it. I'm happy to accept the whole carnival.

Joko: Well. Sure. That's major, OK?

*

Tom: Well I've noticed that I don't really believe that anything's going to do the trick any more.

Joko: Nothing has to do the trick. Because everything's perfect already, being as it is.

*

Joko: Right, right. Well remember life isn't a question of getting it so it's all right. What would you say it is?

Tom: I think that's bothering me. The collapse of all the cool promises.

Joko: I never promised you anything.

Tom: [laughs]. No, you've been very good about that!

*

Joko: Uh-huh... I'm going to leave you with just one thing to work on. You know, I often give dharma talks and say the most important thing is to be disappointed, over and over and over. Now why do I say that? I'm not a gloomy person. Why do I say that? I want you to work on that.

*

Joko: See, most people try to spend a life in which they're never disappointed.

Tom: That's for sure.

Joko: Get it all fixed, so I'm never disappointed. I get a nice life all the time. I'll leave you with that.

*

Joko: There's no practice that gets rid of the ordinary things that come up in your life. You're still going to get a flat tyre and a sore throat. And a friend that you thought you could trust, you find you can't trust. The problems in life never cease.

Tom: What we can deal with is reactions to that?

Joko: Right.

*

Tom: You could in fact tackle all this by sitting like a hermit in easy circumstances? You don't really have to go out and have a flat tyre. Is that what you mean?

Joko: Well, you think about that a little bit. Sometimes if we look around our friends, there are people who seem never to have had trouble in their life, and they're not happy.

*

Joko: I still want you to keep thinking about this. I think you're beginning to work your way into it. But you know, I want you to keep going.

Tom: Yeah, OK. I don't think I could really stop actually. [Chuckles.] Hummm.

Joko: Uh-huh. Well, it's important. Because your life is going to have suffering in it. And either that means you'll be suffering, or you won't. Your life can have suffering in without it making you suffer. You see what I mean?

*

Joko: The path to freedom, you might say, is through disappointment. One after another. By that I mean, as we interpret life, from the standpoint of our human ego, life is disappointing.

Tom: But it's not like it's unique to practice. I mean, you have these disappointments all the time anyway.

Joko: The practice is our life, you see. But the point is, we think there's something wrong with being disappointed. It's the very nature of life that you get lots of disappointments.

*

Joko: What you're trying to do is, “I should be attentive all the time.” I'm not saying not to be attentive, but surprisingly, you're attentiveness will increase if you're honest like that.

*

Joko: The basic human koan is: I want to live forever and as a matter of fact, I'm going to die. There is no thinking that can solve that.

*

Joko: To clarify the nature of this 'I'. The one that wants to live forever. As you maintain awareness, particularly of your thoughts, at some point it dawns on you that you're not really all that stuff. All you are is the functioning. And you're not some fixed thing called Tom. See what I mean? It just creeps up on you. It's not something you realise in your head.

*

Joko: All practice is just to weaken that sense of 'I'. Because you can't possibly see what life is as long as you have a distorted view of who you are. The everyday nitty-gritty of practice. But we don't want to know that. We want some magic wand to come and do it. But it doesn't work that way.

Tom: That's right. My life has been a lot of that: thinking of a final solution — this is going to do it, or that is.

Joko: Nothing's going to do it. But just being alive each second. If you're fully present, that does it, see? But we don't want to be fully present. We want to think about ourselves. So you have a little koan that runs all the time. See what I mean? Very different to really totally cut up a carrot. And not to just totally just cut it up. See what I mean? We never do anything totally. We always have a little part of us that's doing something else.

*

Joko: Well, we do learn that the things we've been attached to and drive us crazy are just thoughts and begin to abandon them. And they don't bother us so much after a while. Which means that we are more free. Right?

Tom: Correct.

Joko: But that's only the beginning. Then what?

*

Joko: What do you think I do the work I do for? I mean I don't have any of those little things that you work so hard to get rid of. I did that a long time ago. So what keeps me practising?

Tom: [pause] Well, I don't know. I just assume... um, that's a good one. What keeps you practising? It would deepen it in some way. But it I really wouldn't know.

Joko: Deepen it. But deepen what?

Tom: Yeah... oooo. [pause] OK, well I don't know.


Joko: I'll give you a clue. I'm not trying to... I'll give you a clue, and then you can think about it, OK?

Tom: All right.
'
Joko: You know in Zen the word love is never used. Somehow, people don't use that. Well, for one thing it's so misunderstood. But in very simple American terms, I suspect Australian terms, the point of practice is to become a loving person.

*

Joko: A truly loving person. Not one who pretends to be a loving person. A compassionate person, a loving person, one who wants to do good, not in order to get something from it, but just wants to do that.

*

Joko: The Dalai Lama says the only important word in practice is kindness.

Tom: Really?

Joko: Yeah. Not some esoteric experience thing. Kindness.

Tom: Wow.

*

Tom: My brother called me up and said that my uncle Bob has six months to a year to live. He's been diagnosed with bone cancer. I've always liked the guy, but I've never kept in touch with him. I've learned a lot from him. I just wondered... I would quite like to call him, but I'm not too sure what to say.

Joko: Just say there's something you want to say to him.

Tom: Ah!

Joko: And nobody's ever going to fight with the idea that they've meant something in your life, that you've learned something from them. That's what we're all waiting to hear! [laughs]

*

Joko: Well, think of yourself, if you're ill. You know when you're ill, it really makes you feel like you've never done anything. You know.

Tom: That's right.

Joko: We love to have somebody tell us at that time: well, you life has not been in vain, you know. You've meant a lot to me.

*

Joko: Well you can't solve it, but you can be it. There's a difference, you see. You can't solve things like life and death in your head. That's not possible. But you can learn to experience life directly, as much as you possibly can. And when you do, the questions that you're bringing up get solved. Maybe not in words, but they get solved. The only thing I ever ask myself is: am I present? Am I here? That's enough. Enough to do that.

*

Joko: Yeah, life consists of problems. That isn't going to change, but how we see the problems change.

Tom: I can more or less greet them with a smile.

Joko: Well you don't have to like them even. But they're still just what they are. So no need to get upset either.

*

Tom: The practice is.. I can settle into a feeling now, just leave it alone.

Joko: Uh-huh. Good for you.

Tom: That's always a help in some way. I don't know quite what happens.

Joko: You're returning to reality. Not your thoughts about it. But just the plain reality.

*

Tom: Yeah. I was thinking, at the beginning Buddhism give you this simple promise: there are problems, they result from clinging, you can get rid of the clinging, then you go to Nirvana and everything is splendid forever.

Joko: Well, it's true, but how do you do it? See?

*

Joko: To boil it down, whenever you're upset or moody or feeling bad, just briefly notice the thoughts. Then go to the body, OK?

Tom: Yeah, yeah. Oddly enough, that works absolutely fine.

Joko: It does, and we don't want to do it.

*

Joko: Right. That's why in dharma talks I often say, you have to be thoroughly disappointed to do this practice. That means you begin to see that just hopes in your mind forever is a waste of time.

*

Joko: It's nice to stay in bed. It is. [laughs] We don't have to pretend we don't want to stay in bed.

Tom: There are millions of reasons why you don't want to stop during the day and practise.

Joko: But what are they?

Tom: What are they? Interesting question.

Joko: You could give me the quick things you think of. But I'd rather you take a little more time. See, there's no one who practices, Tom, for whom — at least for a long time — that 50% of their practice is resistance.

*

Tom: One of the things that's plainly a resistance is when things are going well. When things are going well, I've noticed that it's a bit harder to get down and do it, than when you're buffeted by things going wrong. So I guess it's the old story of things going wrong being teachers in a way.

Joko: Well, we so much want things to go well. And it's almost as though when things are going well, we just don't want to even look or think of anything else.

*

Tom: There was one final general thing. That was a kind of blank dullness. I mean, everyday I open my little dog door for my dog in the morning. It's got two little hooks, one on each side. And I know that no matter how many times I open it, the dog will never get it. I won't find him letting himself out. Simple as it is, and he could do it, he just doesn't get it! [laughs] Simply not possible for the dog.

Joko: He doesn't need to. You do it! [laughs]

*

Joko: That's sort of wishful thinking. See, if I could be above all other human beings, and different. Then wouldn't that be wonderful? But that's not real teaching.

Tom: Yeah, you want to join the immortal gods.

Joko: Right, right. That's a Zen type of poison.

*

Tom: Last time we spoke, you said I should check in more often. And I've been trying. Except it didn't work. [chuckles]

Joko: [laughs] OK. I'm just... you know, practice needs to be kept sharp, until you're so sharp you don't need to talk to me. OK?

*

Tom: I'm a little surprised that things don't all happen at once. I don't really understand why there's...

Joko: Why there's time?

Tom: Why these forces, these things come one at a time. They're there all the time, but they're presented one at a time. That intrigues me.

Joko: You can have fun thinking about it, but don't expect to understand it.

*

Joko: [chuckles] OK? There's a difference. Reality isn't something we can really understand. We can just be with it, OK? You do have a different view of the world, but it's not the same as saying... well, for instance explaining that point. You really can't do that.

Tom: Ah, so that is an issue is it? That point surprises me.

Joko: We always want to explain the universe entirely. But that's just another way of trying to be safe. But it's also fun, see? You can do it for fun.

*

Joko: You can play with this. But don't mix it up with practice.

*

Tom: We're all desperate for an explanation. And a lot of them are weird, religion-like, superstitions that you see everywhere. An explanation is what I want too, in a way.

Joko: Well you won't get that. But what you do get if you sit long enough and hard enough is the ability to just be one with this mystery. And if you're one with it, somehow you don't have to ask these questions. You just know something.

*

Joko: Just in terms of your very everyday life, things go better. It can be very different for you. You don't figure something out in your head. It's something that soaks into your whole life. It's what realisation is. It isn't something you can put down in a paragraph.

*

Avatar
tommi
Viestit: 639
Liittynyt: 09 Helmi 2013 22:10
titteli: über geek
Viesti:

Re: Joko Beck

ViestiKirjoittaja tommi » 27 Joulu 2014 09:29

MarkoH kirjoitti:Minusta kyse ei ole kummastakaan. Joko Beckiä ei tunnu kiinnostavan sen enempää "jännemmyys" kuin "imukaan".

Mutta tuntuu kuitenkin kiinnostavan "erilaisen lähestymistavan kokeileminen". Onko näissä jotain eroa, vai ovatko kaikki kenties saman asian kiertoilmaisuja?

MarkoH kirjoitti:... Ihmiset eivät halua kuulla sitä oikeasti kuulevat, vaan jotain mitä haluavat kuulla. Mutta miten paljon opettaja voi tehdä tällaisten ihmisten eteen, ja miten paljon kannattaa yrittää tehdä? He eivät vaan osaa kuunnella! ...

Tästä taisi olla jokin tutkimus jossa tutkittiin miten fysiikanopetuksessa voidaan kumota oppilaiden vääriä käsityksiä. Tuloksena oli se, että ei riitä että vain toistetaan oppilaille sitä oikeaa käsitystä, vaan täytyy tuoda esille se oppilaiden omaksuma väärä käsitys ja sitten selkeasti esittää että se on väärä, jonka jälkeen voidaan tuoda esille se oikea käsitys.

MarkoH kirjoitti:Homman juju on siinä, että "minä" ei tee sitä. Minun ei siis tarvitse tietää miten se tehdään, samaan tapaan kun potilaan omat sormet ovat vaan tiellä kun kirurgi tekee syöpäleikkausta. Mutta jos kiistän koko ongelman todellisuuden enkä kohtaa sitä, sanon että se on pelkkää teoriaa, kipuihini voi ihan hyvin olla jokin muukin syy kunhan vain keksin sen, kirurgin on hyvin vaikea tehdä mitään.

Homman juju on pikemminkin siinä, että ei ole väliä kuka tekee, "minä" tai "joku muu" tai "ei-kukaan". Ainoa millä on väliä on, että homma tulee tehdyksi. Ja jos homma tulee tehdyksi, niin sillä ei oikeastaan ole väliä, että kiistetäänkö ongelman todellisuus vai ei. Antibioottikuuri auttaa vaikka potilas kuinka kiistäisi länsimaisen lääketieteen tehokkuuden, ja kuuri homeopaattista lääkettä ei auta, vaikka kuinka kokisi omakohtaisesti ongelman todellisuuden tässä ja nyt.

Tomi
Viestit: 361
Liittynyt: 11 Helmi 2013 19:20
Viesti:

Re: Joko Beck

ViestiKirjoittaja Tomi » 27 Joulu 2014 11:31

Muutamaan otteeseen Beckin kirjoja lueskellut ja joka kerta niistä pitänyt. Monet tahot joita arvostan ovat niitä myös kehuneet. Nuo käännökset ovat parhaimpia dharma -kirjoja joita suomeksi on saatavilla. En vain keksi aiheesta oikein mitään sanottavaa.


Palaa sivulle “Dharman pyörä”

Paikallaolijat

Käyttäjiä lukemassa tätä aluetta: Ei rekisteröityneitä käyttäjiä ja 1 vierailija