Mielenkiintoisia sutra-lainauksia

[Tomi]

Onko, jotkin Buddhan puheet sarkastisia tai satiirisia? Tai ironisia?

Ovat.

Buddha kuittaili paljonkin.

Osa kuittailuista on tietenkin kuittia vain jos ne kuittailuksi tulkitsee[...].

Näytä esimerkki.

Tuossa on yksi pitkällä esipuheella aiheesta.

http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh120-p.html

Huumori ja erityisesti ironia on aika lailla sidottu välittömään sosiaaliseen ja kulttuuriliseen kontekstiin ja on täten aika todennäköistä että osa hassuttelusta on mennyt myöhemmiltä munkeilta ohitse ja otettu haudan vakavasti. Ainakin tuosta bramiinien käsityksien ja ja rituaalien parodiointi tuntuu kuitenkin aika ilmeiseltä useassa kohtaa.

[Veikko]

Onpa tullut luettua paljon tipitakaa tämän ketjun ja etenkin Harrin ansiosta.

http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh120-p.html

Jos Gotama olisi heti kärkeen sanonut Kutadantalle, että helpoin ja tehokkain tapa saavuttaa se mitä suunnitellulla 3500 eläimen uhraamisella tavoitellaan, onkin Kahdeksanosainen polku, Kutadanta olisi varmaankin pettynyt vastaukseen ja lähtenyt tiehensä. Gootama aloitti kuitenkin siitä mitä Kutadanta odotti kuulevansa, romutti tämän ennakkoajatukset kohteliaasti kiertotietä ja sen jälkeen esitteli Dharman pala kerrallaan. En huomannut sutassa mitään pilkallisuutta. En tosin lukenutkaan sitä ihan kokonaan, vaan hyppelin kokonaisten kapppaleiden yli.

Tässä kohdassa näin sieluni silmin hipit järjestämässä yleistä ulkoilmatapahtumaa.

18. “And further, O Brahman, at the sacrifice no oxen were slain, nor goats, nor fowls, nor fatted pigs, nor were any kinds of living creatures put to death; no trees were cut down to be used as posts, no Dabbha grasses mown to strew around the sacrificial spot. The slaves, messengers, and workmen employed there were not coerced by rods nor fear, nor carried on their work weeping with tears upon their faces. Whoever chose to help he worked; whoever chose not to help, worked not. What each chose to do he did; what they chose not to do, that was left undone. With ghee, and oil, and butter, and milk, and honey, and sugar only was that sacrifice accomplished.

[Harri]

Sūtra of the Upāsaka Precepts

Good man, far back in the past, before I first activated the bodhi mind, I encountered neither a Buddha nor a Pratyekabuddha, but I heard a god from a pure abode heaven expound the dharma of liberation. After hearing this dharma, I immediately activated the bodhi mind.

http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra33a.html
Eli teistiset uskonnot voi herättää bodhimielen.

Noinhan tuossa ei sanota. Siinä sanotaan, että Dharma ja sen kuuleminen itsessään, jopa ilman Buddhaa, voi herättää bodhimielen.

Se että tuon Dharman sattui sanomaan joku jumala, ei tee teistisistä uskonnoista bodhimielenherättäjää.

[Kuut]

Muissakin uskonnoissa voi olla Buddhaan törmännyt Jumala/jumalia taustalla. Ei se ainakaan sutria vastaan liene. Voisiko hindulaisuus olla jäänne edeltävältä Buddhalta? Ovatko he edes eläneet tällä planeetalla, eli muualla? Eli uskotteko, että on ollut kymmeniä tuhansia vuosia eläneitä? Pitääkö nuo sutrat lukea kirjaimellisesti?

[Mohax]

Majjhima Nikaya 95 - Cankī Sutta
Totuuden säilyttäminen, löytäminen ja lopullinen saavuttaminen:

15. “But, Master Gotama, in what way is there the preservation of truth? How does one preserve truth? We ask Master Gotama about the preservation of truth.”

“If a person has faith, Bhāradvāja, he preserves truth when he says: ‘My faith is thus’; but he does not yet come to the definite conclusion: ‘Only this is true, anything else is wrong.’ In this way, Bhāradvāja, there is the preservation of truth; in this way he preserves truth; in this way we describe the preservation of truth. But as yet there is no discovery of truth.

“If a person approves of something…if he receives an oral tradition…if he [reaches a conclusion based on] reasoned cogitation…if he gains a reflective acceptance of a view, he preserves truth when he says: ‘My reflective acceptance of a view is thus’; but he does not yet come to the definite conclusion: ‘Only this is true, anything else is wrong.’ In this way too, Bhāradvāja, there is the preservation of truth; in this way he preserves truth; in this way we describe the preservation of truth. But as yet there is no discovery of truth.”

16. “In that way, Master Gotama, there is the preservation of truth; in that way one preserves truth; in that way we recognise the preservation of truth. But in what way, Master Gotama, is there the discovery of truth? In what way does one discover truth? We ask Master Gotama about the discovery of truth.”
...
20. “When he has investigated him and has seen that he is purified from states based on [greed, hatred] delusion, then he places faith in him; filled with faith he visits him and pays respect to him; having paid respect to him, he gives ear; when he gives ear, he hears the Dhamma; having heard the Dhamma, he memorises it and examines the meaning of the teachings he has memorised; when he examines their meaning, he gains a reflective acceptance of those teachings; when he has gained a reflective acceptance of those teachings, zeal springs up; when zeal has sprung up, he applies his will; having applied his will, he scrutinises; having scrutinised, he strives; resolutely striving, he realises with the body the supreme truth and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom. In this way, Bhāradvāja, there is the discovery of truth; in this way one discovers truth; in this way we describe the discovery of truth. But as yet there is no final arrival at truth.”

21. “In that way, Master Gotama, there is the discovery of truth; in that way one discovers truth; in that way we recognise the discovery of truth. But in what way, Master Gotama, is there the final arrival at truth? In what way does one finally arrive at truth? We ask Master Gotama about the final arrival at truth.”

“The final arrival at truth, Bhāradvāja, lies in the repetition, development, and cultivation of those same things. In this way, Bhāradvāja, there is the final arrival at truth; in this way one finally arrives at truth; in this way we describe the final arrival at truth.”

[Mohax]

Anguttara Nikaya 8.53 Gotami Sutta: To Gotami

I have heard that at one time the Blessed One was staying at Vesali, in the Peaked Roof Hall in the Great Forest.

Then Mahapajapati Gotami went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, stood to one side. As she was standing there she said to him:

"It would be good, lord, if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief such that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute."

"Gotami, the qualities of which you may know,
'These qualities lead
to passion, not to dispassion;
to being fettered, not to being unfettered;
to accumulating, not to shedding;
to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty;
to discontent, not to contentment;
to entanglement, not to seclusion;
to laziness, not to aroused persistence;
to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome':
You may categorically hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.'

"As for the qualities of which you may know,
'These qualities lead
to dispassion, not to passion;
to being unfettered, not to being fettered;
to shedding, not to accumulating;
to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement;
to contentment, not to discontent;
to seclusion, not to entanglement;
to aroused persistence, not to laziness;
to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome':
You may categorically hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Mahapajapati Gotami delighted at his words.

[...]

Ei ole sutra. Silti, aika mielenkiintoinen.

[sininendraakki]

Anguttara Nikaya 8.53 Gotami Sutta: To Gotami

I have heard that at one time the Blessed One was staying at Vesali, in the Peaked Roof Hall in the Great Forest.

Then Mahapajapati Gotami went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, stood to one side. As she was standing there she said to him:

"It would be good, lord, if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief such that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, & resolute."

"Gotami, the qualities of which you may know,
'These qualities lead
to passion, not to dispassion;
to being fettered, not to being unfettered;
to accumulating, not to shedding;
to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty;
to discontent, not to contentment;
to entanglement, not to seclusion;
to laziness, not to aroused persistence;
to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome':
You may categorically hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.'

"As for the qualities of which you may know,
'These qualities lead
to dispassion, not to passion;
to being unfettered, not to being fettered;
to shedding, not to accumulating;
to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement;
to contentment, not to discontent;
to seclusion, not to entanglement;
to aroused persistence, not to laziness;
to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome':
You may categorically hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, Mahapajapati Gotami delighted at his words.

Thanissaro Bhikkhun käännös on harhaan johtava, vanha Pali Text Societyn käännös on parempi.
Buddha vastaa todellisuudessa kysymykseen: "Mistä tiedämme mitkä sutrat ovat aitoja ja oikeita Buddhan opetuksia?"
Buddhan vastauksen alkulauseessa Thanissaro Bhikkhu kääntää sanan Dhamma/(Dharma) sanalla qualities. Jolloin opetuksen syntymiseen johtanut alkuperäinen tilanne on hävitetty ja peitetty näkyvistä tällä Thanissaro Bhikkhun näppärällä käännöstempulla.
Thanissaro Bhikkhu käyttää muuallakin sanaa qualities kääntämään sanan Dhamma/Dharma, esim teoksessaan Wings to Awakening. Siellä se ei kuitenkaan muuta opetuksen merkitystä sellaisella ratkaisevalla tavalla kuin tässä Gomati Suttassa,

[tommi]

Thanissaro Bhikkhun käännös on harhaan johtava, vanha Pali Text Societyn käännös on parempi.
Buddha vastaa todellisuudessa kysymykseen: "Mistä tiedämme mitkä sutrat ovat aitoja ja oikeita Buddhan opetuksia?"
Buddhan vastauksen alkulauseessa Thanissaro Bhikkhu kääntää sanan Dhamma/(Dharma) sanalla qualities. Jolloin opetuksen syntymiseen johtanut alkuperäinen tilanne on hävitetty ja peitetty näkyvistä tällä Thanissaro Bhikkhun näppärällä käännöstempulla.

Eikös opetuksen syntymisen johtanut alkuperäinen tilanne ole tuossa ihan selvästi näkyvillä, eli Buddhan täti Gotami kysyi Buddhalta: "Voisiko arvoisa herra tiivistää opetuksensa lyhyesti, jotta tämän tiivistelmän kuultuani voisin mennä luolaan yksikseni istumaan, innostusta täynnä"?

Minusta tuo sinun näkemyksesi, että kysymys on aitojen sutrien tunnistamisesta, on harhaanjohtava, sillä eihän yksin luolassa istuva mummeli tarvitse mitään dokumenttianalyysin oppeja, vaan nimenomaan napakan ja mieleenpainuvan tiivistelmän Buddhan opin tärkeimmästä ytimestä.