Pratimoksha- and Bodhisattva vows

[Johann]

edit: this topic was split from viewtopic.php?f=7&t=345&start=90#p3832

Very wrong, very wrong! Perfect nowadays misleading.

You what mate?

I am not sure if I did get you right: you're implying that shamatha-meditation and/or four foundations are somehow basis for wrong view?

Yes. If there is no right view, there will be no right release, right knowledge... The Path does not start with factor samadhi. Even a killer or a hunter has samadhi, but in no way samma samadhi. He also has a certain ditthi,... but no samma ditthi..

Anyway, here's an excellent interview, which touches the (commonly misunderstood) subjects: Shunyata, Buddha-nature, Buddha, etc.

This are not even topic on this stage, to teach somebody on such a stage about Shunyata is even a violation of the root Bodhisattva vows. He is also not really a sample of somebody who have found a real foot hood, so he might be a Bodhisatta but not somebody who can teach the Dhamma. Great worlding and most honorable form this view, he gave also many people much food for thoughts and will be a good worldly sample, but at least he also cuts of many off of the still possible way.
Personally I like him very much and I really wish him to get the final amount on saddha to make it unshakeable what might be guessed.

[...]

Yes. If there is no right view, there will be no right release, right knowledge...

Well, tibetan buddhist practice usually involves refuge and bodhicitta, plus guru most often will give instructions, while teaching samatha and vipashyana, how to get a glimpse of the right view. That's why it is often pointed out how crucial it is to get the instructions from the lineage than from random books. Other argue, that while practicing shamatha, it is the most easiest way to get to taste Buddha Nature. And no point going further, if the mind is not calm enough.

This are not even topic on this stage, to teach somebody on such a stage about Shunyata is even a violation of the root Bodhisattva vows.

For what it's worth, it is also taken to be a violaton of the Bodhisattva vows, if one does not clarify misunderstandings and/or teach when it's appropiate. But you know what? I am not on the level where I could say who has or hasn't broken his vows. That's way beyond me. In addition, I don't want to take that kind of authority over anyone.

Bow & anjali.

[Johann]

Yes. If there is no right view, there will be no right release, right knowledge...

Well, tibetan buddhist practice usually involves refuge and bodhicitta, plus guru most often will give instructions, while teaching samatha and vipashyana, how to get a glimpse of the right view. That's why it is often pointed out how crucial it is to get the instructions from the lineage than from random books. Other argue, that while practicing shamatha, it is the most easiest way to get to taste Buddha Nature. And no point going further, if the mind is not calm enough.

The line of how does one get calm and more is laid down here: The rewards of virtue and the factor of arising of right view here:Voice

This are not even topic on this stage, to teach somebody on such a stage about Shunyata is even a violation of the root Bodhisattva vows.

For what it's worth, it is also taken to be a violaton of the Bodhisattva vows, if one does not clarify misunderstandings and/or teach when it's appropiate. But you know what? I am not on the level where I could say who has or hasn't broken his vows. That's way beyond me. In addition, I don't want to take that kind of authority over anyone.

Bow & anjali.

It is not only a important protection but also a way to adopt higher virtue, to get somebodies vows or precepts known. Don't forget, if there is no sample around its not easy to gain right view. Maybe useful: Root Bodhisattva Vows

A very important sutta in regard of "Thats way beyound me": Dispraise
One is responsible at least only for ones own actions. No need to execute anything, that is neither the task of vows nor of precepts. One sticks to them voluntary, gives them up and loses their benefit voluntary as well.

Even so, maybe to reflect and think a little about this root vow and also about the intention and the danger of misuse not to speak about the underlying suggestions here inside this vow even violations another...

(11) Teaching voidness to those whose minds are untrained

The primary objects of this downfall are persons with the bodhichitta motivation who are not yet ready to understand voidness. Such persons would become confused or frightened by this teaching and consequently abandon the bodhisattva path for the path of personal liberation (??!!). This can happen as a result of thinking that if all phenomena are devoid of inherent, findable existence, then no one exists, so why bother working to benefit anyone else? This action also includes teaching voidness to anyone who would misunderstand it and therefore forsake the Dharma completely, for example by thinking that Buddhism teaches that nothing exists and is therefore sheer nonsense. Without extrasensory perception, it is difficult to know whether others' minds are sufficiently trained so that they will not misconstrue the teachings on the voidness of all phenomena. Therefore, it is important to lead others to these teachings through explanations of graduated levels of complexity, and periodically to check their understanding.

[tommi]

This are not even topic on this stage, to teach somebody on such a stage about Shunyata is even a violation of the root Bodhisattva vows.

When you say "this stage", what are you referring to?

Out of curiosity I tried to find the source for your quote of the 11th bodhisattva rootfall and I happened to come across the following:
http://kalachakranet.org/text-bodhisattva-vows.html

Please note this response from Nawang Gehlek Rinpoche during an interview with Dave Benn (19th April 2002):

Question: It states in Buddhist scriptures that one must never teach emptiness (Sunyata) to a person who is not ready to receive these teachings. What do you do when you wish to share such a wonderful experiential jewel?
Rinpoche: True. But it is easier to teach an educated Western person emptiness than someone for example from China or South East Asia, even to some extent Tibetans. This is particularly so if the Western happens to be a scientist, a physicist who has studied Einstein's 'Theory of Relativity'. They are half way there! It is definitely much easier to talk about emptiness to an educated Westerner than to traditionally Buddhist people.

btw, if there is more to say about this topic, should we continue in the English language section of the forum?

[...]

It is not only a important protection but also a way to adopt higher virtue, to get somebodies vows or precepts known. Don't forget, if there is no sample around its not easy to gain right view. Maybe useful: Root Bodhisattva Vows

From the very same site, Dr. Berzin also gives commentary for those vows. For example:

But if we look at various texts that have been written, the great Indian masters (Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, etc.) wrote many various texts on voidness and they were certainly following the Mahayana path; and His Holiness the Dalai Lama teaches about voidness all the time to very large audiences. So are they violating this bodhisattva vow is the question. Are they teaching voidness to somebody whose mind is untrained? And that’s a difficult question, but one thing that is perhaps helpful here is to realize that the way that they are teaching it is so complicated and difficult to understand that those who are not ready to be able to understand it won’t understand anything. So it’s not that they will get a wrong idea, they will just get the idea that “I can’t understand this.” So if we’re teaching to somebody individually then of course we can always check and see what their understanding is. But when we’re teaching in larger groups, that’s much more difficult. But you can see from the way that the major explanation of this is given, that the point of this is that we’re talking about somebody with bodhichitta motivation already, that the teaching of voidness would cause them to give that up.

I bet also, that you didn't watch the youtube clip.

A very important sutta in regard of "Thats way beyound me"

You got me wrong. I am not a bodhisattva, nor do have any extraordinary capabilities to discern whether someone is breaking her vows. I am not on that level. Plus, I'm busy enough with my own misdeeds.

btw, if there is more to say about this topic, should we continue in the English language section of the forum?

Totally. Should we like copy it to there and post link to this thread? What do you think?

[tommi]

btw, if there is more to say about this topic, should we continue in the English language section of the forum?

Totally. Should we like copy it to there and post link to this thread? What do you think?

Yeah, sounds like a good plan.

[Johann]

It is not only a important protection but also a way to adopt higher virtue, to get somebodies vows or precepts known. Don't forget, if there is no sample around its not easy to gain right view. Maybe useful: Root Bodhisattva Vows

From the very same site, Dr. Berzin also gives commentary for those vows. For example:

But if we look at various texts that have been written, the great Indian masters (Nagarjuna, Chandrakirti, etc.) wrote many various texts on voidness and they were certainly following the Mahayana path; and His Holiness the Dalai Lama teaches about voidness all the time to very large audiences. So are they violating this bodhisattva vow is the question. Are they teaching voidness to somebody whose mind is untrained? And that’s a difficult question, but one thing that is perhaps helpful here is to realize that the way that they are teaching it is so complicated and difficult to understand that those who are not ready to be able to understand it won’t understand anything. So it’s not that they will get a wrong idea, they will just get the idea that “I can’t understand this.” So if we’re teaching to somebody individually then of course we can always check and see what their understanding is. But when we’re teaching in larger groups, that’s much more difficult. But you can see from the way that the major explanation of this is given, that the point of this is that we’re talking about somebody with bodhichitta motivation already, that the teaching of voidness would cause them to give that up.

Rationalizations is the main way people approach Dhamma and to be honest, since when do the Dalai Lama care much about vows or even Vinaya?

I bet also, that you didn't watch the youtube clip.

I tried it, but yes, I didn't came far.

A very important sutta in regard of "Thats way beyound me"

You got me wrong. I am not a bodhisattva, nor do have any extraordinary capabilities to discern whether someone is breaking her vows. I am not on that level. Plus, I'm busy enough with my own misdeeds.

The Suttas are not for such called Bodhisattvas, they are advices for everybody who is willing to be taught. They also have no footnotes "If you are busy, with other stuff, it would not matter if it is not know."

btw, if there is more to say about this topic, should we continue in the English language section of the forum?

Totally. Should we like copy it to there and post link to this thread? What do you think?[/quote][/quote]
Do you really have people on side who don't speak English?

This are not even topic on this stage, to teach somebody on such a stage about Shunyata is even a violation of the root Bodhisattva vows.

When you say "this stage", what are you referring to?

People with untrained mind.

Out of curiosity I tried to find the source for your quote of the 11th bodhisattva rootfall and I happened to come across the following:
http://kalachakranet.org/text-bodhisattva-vows.html

Please note this response from Nawang Gehlek Rinpoche during an interview with Dave Benn (19th April 2002):

Question: It states in Buddhist scriptures that one must never teach emptiness (Sunyata) to a person who is not ready to receive these teachings. What do you do when you wish to share such a wonderful experiential jewel?
Rinpoche: True. But it is easier to teach an educated Western person emptiness than someone for example from China or South East Asia, even to some extent Tibetans. This is particularly so if the Western happens to be a scientist, a physicist who has studied Einstein's 'Theory of Relativity'. They are half way there! It is definitely much easier to talk about emptiness to an educated Westerner than to traditionally Buddhist people.

What a answer. As if such generalizations would legitimate such things. From what I know it is other wise. Modern people are much to confused to get something basically in a way it should be, no matter if they are from east or west.

"They are half way there!" not even on the direction, since they are used to construct things by pondering. As it emptiness would be a philosophy.

Its no secret that many people overestimate "educated Westerns" and what should he say else. Thinks on the millions of battles and struggles, discussions of people about emptiness around the world. Most of them are even not a little aware about own mind and its current state. Of course it's the No. 1 excuses of wrong doings, perfect for it and so very popular.

The answer of Rinpoche itself is not answer to the question at all.

[tommi]

Totally. Should we like copy it to there and post link to this thread? What do you think?

Do you really have people on side who don't speak English?

Maybe not that many, but there are other reasons, for example all other posts in that thread are in Finnish, so people who don't speak English might not find this discussion if it's hidden inside a Finnish language thread.

This are not even topic on this stage, to teach somebody on such a stage about Shunyata is even a violation of the root Bodhisattva vows.

When you say "this stage", what are you referring to?

People with untrained mind.

When I was 15 years old I had completed 9 years of formal training in mathematics, biology, geography, Finnish language, music and art. Of course the training didn't end there, that was just the basic minimum that everyone must go through.

So where do you find these people with untrained minds?

Its no secret that many people overestimate "educated Westerns" and what should he say else. Thinks on the millions of battles and struggles, discussions of people about emptiness around the world. Most of them are even not a little aware about own mind and its current state.

Of course it is also true that even in the west some people are more educated and others less.

If we take a look at Tsongkhapa's commentary on the bodhisattva vows, we can see that the requirement for hearing teachings on emptiness seems to be that the person doesn't become frightened when hearing an unconventional idea:

persons with the bodhichitta motivation who are not yet ready to understand voidness. Such persons would become confused or frightened by this teaching and consequently abandon the bodhisattva path for the path of personal liberation

I find it hard to imagine that a person who is educated enough to watch YouTube would become confused or frightened when hearing of emptiness, and would switch from Mahayana to Hinayana as a result. I would imagine that if a person with even a little formal education hears of a new idea, they will at first think that they don't understand it, but they believe that they can understand it if they continue with their training and education.

Of course it's the No. 1 excuses of wrong doings, perfect for it and so very popular.

What do you mean here? Do you mean that the buddhist teaching of emptiness is the no. 1 excuse for doing wrong?

In the west I would imagine that 90% of people haven't even heard of the buddhist concept of emptiness, so I find it unlikely that it would be used as an excuse for anything.

[Johann]

Totally. Should we like copy it to there and post link to this thread? What do you think?

Do you really have people on side who don't speak English?

Maybe not that many, but there are other reasons, for example all other posts in that thread are in Finnish, so people who don't speak English might not find this discussion if it's hidden inside a Finnish language thread.

Maybe? Sounds like much speculations. But really no problem. Now people who don't like to put an effort the read English would not see it. Really no problem.
(Would be a great chance for dana and giving, if one would translate it if he fear a disadvantage for others)

People with untrained mind.

When I was 15 years old I had completed 9 years of formal training in mathematics, biology, geography, Finnish language, music and art. Of course the training didn't end there, that was just the basic minimum that everyone must go through.

So where do you find these people with untrained minds?

"Jesus!?" (to take a usual expression), do you think that this is mind training in the sense of Dhamma? You can be sure that you have got a training that pretty has driven you totally outward and into objectification.
Tell a heavy educated person about emptiness and you can be sure that he will be totally confused, at best he would hang around for centuries in forums and discuss matters and concepts.

Its no secret that many people overestimate "educated Westerns" and what should he say else. Thinks on the millions of battles and struggles, discussions of people about emptiness around the world. Most of them are even not a little aware about own mind and its current state.

Of course it is also true that even in the west some people are more educated and others less.

That is mostly an obstacle. They have a lot of possession and sanjas, concepts... but hardly one even has an idea of mind objects or what is called "emotional intelligence"

If we take a look at Tsongkhapa's commentary on the bodhisattva vows, we can see that the requirement for hearing teachings on emptiness seems to be that the person doesn't become frightened when hearing an unconventional idea:

persons with the bodhichitta motivation who are not yet ready to understand voidness. Such persons would become confused or frightened by this teaching and consequently abandon the bodhisattva path for the path of personal liberation

If we read certain commentaries of "teachers" we can see that they hardly respect the elders and the teachings of long traditions.
Actually the point of this vow is even on another level as meant, I would not even talk about here.

I find it hard to imagine that a person who is educated enough to watch YouTube would become confused or frightened when hearing of emptiness, and would switch from Mahayana to Hinayana as a result. I would imagine that if a person with even a little formal education hears of a new idea, they will at first think that they don't understand it, but they believe that they can understand it if they continue with their training and education.

As far as I have seen, there are less not totally confused. And I can not imagine what about those who even never let others know about things.

Of course it's the No. 1 excuses of wrong doings, perfect for it and so very popular.

What do you mean here? Do you mean that the buddhist teaching of emptiness is the no. 1 excuse for doing wrong?

Yes.

In the west I would imagine that 90% of people haven't even heard of the buddhist concept of emptiness, so I find it unlikely that it would be used as an excuse for anything.

That would be good, but actually it isn't. Just look at forums. Hardly you would find people talking about parents, gratitude, respect, generosity (you would even get banned after talking about such issues) but long before they even have taken refuge or even take precepts seriously and stick to them, they would talk and mostly even teach such topics.

[Johann]

Maybe the topic title would be good to change into "Teaching the transcendent aspects of Dhamma to ordinary people"