Pratimoksha- and Bodhisattva vows

Discussion on Dharma and related subjects in English language.
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Viestit: 1143
Liittynyt: 09 Helmi 2013 12:25
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Re: Mistä buddhalaisuudessa on kyse?

ViestiKirjoittaja ... » 10 Helmi 2014 11:58

tommi kirjoitti:I find it hard to imagine that a person who is educated enough to watch YouTube would become confused or frightened when hearing of emptiness, and would switch from Mahayana to Hinayana as a result.


At first I was interested what particular aspect of Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche's definition of Shunyata will confuse "ordinary" beings1. However, since...

Johann kirjoitti:I tried it, but yes, I didn't came far.


even though Johann didn't watch it, he thought it suitable to criticize DKR's definition. Tbh, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. :sarcasm:

1. I don't know to what Johann refers with "ordinary". In Mahayana everyone, who hasn't reached atleast first bodhisattva level, are ordinary.

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Johann
Viestit: 45
Liittynyt: 13 Helmi 2013 02:11
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Re: Mistä buddhalaisuudessa on kyse?

ViestiKirjoittaja Johann » 10 Helmi 2014 14:53

Raitanator kirjoitti:
tommi kirjoitti:I find it hard to imagine that a person who is educated enough to watch YouTube would become confused or frightened when hearing of emptiness, and would switch from Mahayana to Hinayana as a result.


At first I was interested what particular aspect of Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche's definition of Shunyata will confuse "ordinary" beings1. However, since...

Johann kirjoitti:I tried it, but yes, I didn't came far.


even though Johann didn't watch it, he thought it suitable to criticize DKR's definition. Tbh, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. :sarcasm:

1. I don't know to what Johann refers with "ordinary". In Mahayana everyone, who hasn't reached atleast first bodhisattva level, are ordinary.


Nothing wrong with it (just change Bodhisattva with stage of holiness) and if Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche made that (Shunyata "Stuff") clear, than it should be a possibility to let go of cry and laugh but give confidence space and maybe even a joyful rest till equanimity.

mudita

(I saw expressions like such are usual in such situations here, so just for confirmations, if it could be confirmed :headbang: "cultural exception!!" leaved it behind longer ago)

PS: The treat cutter did not cut out the roots of this discussion, so beware of getting things wrong. And I am incredible not watcher of medias, so I just walk the "guess path".

About "ariya-sangha" you might find some soberly explaining here: Sangha

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tommi
Viestit: 640
Liittynyt: 09 Helmi 2013 22:10
titteli: über geek
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Re: Mistä buddhalaisuudessa on kyse?

ViestiKirjoittaja tommi » 10 Helmi 2014 18:16

Johann kirjoitti:
tommi kirjoitti:
Johann kirjoitti:People with untrained mind.

When I was 15 years old I had completed 9 years of formal training in mathematics, biology, geography, Finnish language, music and art. Of course the training didn't end there, that was just the basic minimum that everyone must go through.

So where do you find these people with untrained minds?

"Jesus!?" (to take a usual expression), do you think that this is mind training in the sense of Dhamma? You can be sure that you have got a training that pretty has driven you totally outward and into objectification.
Tell a heavy educated person about emptiness and you can be sure that he will be totally confused, at best he would hang around for centuries in forums and discuss matters and concepts.

So when you say "untrained mind", you mean something more specific still, untrained "in the sense of Dhamma"? So what does that mean?

Johann kirjoitti:If we read certain commentaries of "teachers" we can see that they hardly respect the elders and the teachings of long traditions.
Actually the point of this vow is even on another level as meant, I would not even talk about here.

So are you now saying that the quote you posted regarding the 11th boddhisattva root downfall (based on Tsongkhapa's commentary) is incorrect? If you think it is incorrect then why did you post it here in the first place?

Johann kirjoitti:
tommi kirjoitti:In the west I would imagine that 90% of people haven't even heard of the buddhist concept of emptiness, so I find it unlikely that it would be used as an excuse for anything.

That would be good, but actually it isn't. Just look at forums.

Which forums should I look at? And how many people are there having discussions on these forums? Would you estimate that more than 10% of the population of western Europe is participating in these forums?

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Johann
Viestit: 45
Liittynyt: 13 Helmi 2013 02:11
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Re: Mistä buddhalaisuudessa on kyse?

ViestiKirjoittaja Johann » 11 Helmi 2014 01:32

tommi kirjoitti:
Johann kirjoitti:
tommi kirjoitti:When I was 15 years old I had completed 9 years of formal training in mathematics, biology, geography, Finnish language, music and art. Of course the training didn't end there, that was just the basic minimum that everyone must go through.

So where do you find these people with untrained minds?

"Jesus!?" (to take a usual expression), do you think that this is mind training in the sense of Dhamma? You can be sure that you have got a training that pretty has driven you totally outward and into objectification.
Tell a heavy educated person about emptiness and you can be sure that he will be totally confused, at best he would hang around for centuries in forums and discuss matters and concepts.

So when you say "untrained mind", you mean something more specific still, untrained "in the sense of Dhamma"? So what does that mean?

Tommi, normal education (worldly education) is about learning concepts and ways of thinking and its also about remembering them. One does not train to observe mind, one is not trained to observe inside the frame of references.
Most parts are actually fully in the other direction. It does not mean that there are certain trainings in concentration but as told, also a hunter is trained in concentration (samadhi).

tommi kirjoitti:
Johann kirjoitti:If we read certain commentaries of "teachers" we can see that they hardly respect the elders and the teachings of long traditions.
Actually the point of this vow is even on another level as meant, I would not even talk about here.

So are you now saying that the quote you posted regarding the 11th boddhisattva root downfall (based on Tsongkhapa's commentary) is incorrect? If you think it is incorrect then why did you post it here in the first place?

No, it means that it actually has also a second reason, a coloring, which does not fit to the original problem/danger. Although this colored intention would prevent for doing wrong in regard of the uncolored.
That means that the precept it self is correct, while the commentary is incorrect in its detail end partly (when one looks at the motivation) even against a Bodhisattva-intention. How ever, at least it could prevent others form giving them a field of ripping, even ones own intentions, why not giving such a field, is not wholesome at least.

tommi kirjoitti:
Johann kirjoitti:
tommi kirjoitti:In the west I would imagine that 90% of people haven't even heard of the buddhist concept of emptiness, so I find it unlikely that it would be used as an excuse for anything.

That would be good, but actually it isn't. Just look at forums.

Which forums should I look at? And how many people are there having discussions on these forums? Would you estimate that more than 10% of the population of western Europe is participating in these forums?

You would not find one and you would not find many "Starter classes" where this is not the main discussion point.

Dhamma - A Gradual Training

The gradual training begins with the practice of generosity, which helps begin the long process of weakening the unawakened practitioner's habitual tendencies to cling — to views, to sensuality, and to unskillful modes of thought and behavior. This is followed by the development of virtue, the basic level of sense-restraint that helps the practitioner develop a healthy and trustworthy sense of self. The peace of mind born from this level of self-respect provides the foundation for all further progress along the path. The practitioner now understands that some kinds of happiness are deeper and more dependable than anything that sense-gratification can ever provide; the happiness born of generosity and virtue can even lead to rebirth in heaven — either literal or metaphorical. But eventually the practitioner begins to recognize the intrinsic drawbacks of even this kind of happiness: as good as rebirth in wholesome states may be, the happiness it brings is not a true and lasting one, for it relies on conditions over which he or she ultimately has no control. This marks a crucial turning point in the training, when the practitioner begins to grasp that true happiness will never be found in the realm of the physical and sensual world. The only possible route to an unconditioned happiness lies in renunciation, in turning away from the sensual realm, by trading the familiar, lower forms of happiness for something far more rewarding and noble. Now, at last, the practitioner is ripe to receive the teachings on the Four Noble Truths, which spell out the course of mental training required to realize the highest happiness: nibbana.

Many Westerners first encounter the Buddha's teachings on meditation retreats, which typically begin with instructions in how to develop the skillful qualities of right mindfulness and right concentration. It is worth noting that, as important as these qualities are, the Buddha placed them towards the very end of his gradual course of training. The meaning is clear: to reap the most benefit from meditation practice, to bring to full maturity all the qualities needed for Awakening, the fundamental groundwork must not be overlooked. There is no short-cutting this process.

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tommi
Viestit: 640
Liittynyt: 09 Helmi 2013 22:10
titteli: über geek
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Re: Mistä buddhalaisuudessa on kyse?

ViestiKirjoittaja tommi » 11 Helmi 2014 10:16

Johann kirjoitti:
tommi kirjoitti:So when you say "untrained mind", you mean something more specific still, untrained "in the sense of Dhamma"? So what does that mean?

Tommi, normal education (worldly education) is about learning concepts and ways of thinking and its also about remembering them. One does not train to observe mind, one is not trained to observe inside the frame of references.
Most parts are actually fully in the other direction. It does not mean that there are certain trainings in concentration but as told, also a hunter is trained in concentration (samadhi).

This still sounds a bit vague. What do you think is the "correct stage" for watching the earlier mentioned YouTube video, for example?

Johann kirjoitti:
tommi kirjoitti:So are you now saying that the quote you posted regarding the 11th boddhisattva root downfall (based on Tsongkhapa's commentary) is incorrect? If you think it is incorrect then why did you post it here in the first place?

No, it means that it actually has also a second reason, a coloring, which does not fit to the original problem/danger. Although this colored intention would prevent for doing wrong in regard of the uncolored.
That means that the precept it self is correct, while the commentary is incorrect in its detail end partly (when one looks at the motivation) even against a Bodhisattva-intention. How ever, at least it could prevent others form giving them a field of ripping, even ones own intentions, why not giving such a field, is not wholesome at least.

So are you saying that when you first posted the Tsongkhapa commentary, you meant it as an example of a wrong interpretation? So what makes you think that Tsongkhapa is wrong and you are right?

Johann kirjoitti:You would not find one and you would not find many "Starter classes" where this is not the main discussion point.

What is this "main discussion point"? Are you saying that in almost all buddhist communities the main discussion point is how to misuse the concept of emptiness, for example "it doesn't matter if you steal or are violent, because everything is empty anyway"?

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Johann
Viestit: 45
Liittynyt: 13 Helmi 2013 02:11
Viesti:

Re: Mistä buddhalaisuudessa on kyse?

ViestiKirjoittaja Johann » 11 Helmi 2014 16:47

tommi kirjoitti:
Johann kirjoitti:
tommi kirjoitti:So when you say "untrained mind", you mean something more specific still, untrained "in the sense of Dhamma"? So what does that mean?

Tommi, normal education (worldly education) is about learning concepts and ways of thinking and its also about remembering them. One does not train to observe mind, one is not trained to observe inside the frame of references.
Most parts are actually fully in the other direction. It does not mean that there are certain trainings in concentration but as told, also a hunter is trained in concentration (samadhi).

This still sounds a bit vague. What do you think is the "correct stage" for watching the earlier mentioned YouTube video, for example?

I don't know. If followed the discussion you would have seen that I have not seen the Video. Furthermore the discussion arouse on a point which is not cut out of the original topic. It was in regard of Samadhi as a "sure good thing", which is not. And the detail about our talk here was about if emptiness is something everybody should be taught.

tommi kirjoitti:
Johann kirjoitti:
tommi kirjoitti:So are you now saying that the quote you posted regarding the 11th boddhisattva root downfall (based on Tsongkhapa's commentary) is incorrect? If you think it is incorrect then why did you post it here in the first place?

No, it means that it actually has also a second reason, a coloring, which does not fit to the original problem/danger. Although this colored intention would prevent for doing wrong in regard of the uncolored.
That means that the precept it self is correct, while the commentary is incorrect in its detail end partly (when one looks at the motivation) even against a Bodhisattva-intention. How ever, at least it could prevent others form giving them a field of ripping, even ones own intentions, why not giving such a field, is not wholesome at least.

So are you saying that when you first posted the Tsongkhapa commentary, you meant it as an example of a wrong interpretation? So what makes you think that Tsongkhapa is wrong and you are right?

It looks like that, because it even violates other root vows and is not very coherent. What let me think that it might be wrong? Investigations. Try it, you would also find that it is not coherent with others.

tommi kirjoitti:
Johann kirjoitti:You would not find one and you would not find many "Starter classes" where this is not the main discussion point.

What is this "main discussion point"? Are you saying that in almost all buddhist communities the main discussion point is how to misuse the concept of emptiness, for example "it doesn't matter if you steal or are violent, because everything is empty anyway"?

That the issue "emptiness" is totally above such basic topics like gratitude, respect, generosity and obligingness. Such is a fact and you can look for yourself.

And yes, the concept of emptiness and equanimity is often used to promote or belittle wrong doings, and not seldom within many forums. Also this you could observe everywhere, in modern worlds forums about Buddhism.

All in all Tommi (just saw that there is also a Tomi, I hope I never mixed it), you seems to be busy, not fully involved, so let yourself time, no need to hurry and make the topic simply go on.

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Johann
Viestit: 45
Liittynyt: 13 Helmi 2013 02:11
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Re: Pratimoksha- and Bodhisattva vows

ViestiKirjoittaja Johann » 24 Maalis 2014 06:29

Thanks for you practical sample, so we have also a actually sample to understand what the topic is about.

Johann kirjoitti:
Raitanator kirjoitti:
Johann kirjoitti:Very wrong, very wrong! Perfect nowadays misleading.


You what mate?

I am not sure if I did get you right: you're implying that shamatha-meditation and/or four foundations are somehow basis for wrong view?

Yes. If there is no right view, there will be no right release, right knowledge... The Path does not start with factor samadhi. Even a killer or a hunter has samadhi, but in no way samma samadhi. He also has a certain ditthi,... but no samma ditthi..

Raitanator kirjoitti:Anyway, here's an excellent interview, which touches the (commonly misunderstood) subjects: Shunyata, Buddha-nature, Buddha, etc.


This are not even topic on this stage, to teach somebody on such a stage about Shunyata is even a violation of the root Bodhisattva vows. He is also not really a sample of somebody who have found a real foot hood, so he might be a Bodhisatta but not somebody who can teach the Dhamma. Great worlding and most honorable form this view, he gave also many people much food for thoughts and will be a good worldly sample, but at least he also cuts of many off of the still possible way.
Personally I like him very much and I really wish him to get the final amount on saddha to make it unshakeable what might be guessed.

sininendraakki
Viestit: 181
Liittynyt: 30 Syys 2015 12:59
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Re: Pratimoksha- and Bodhisattva vows

ViestiKirjoittaja sininendraakki » 24 Maalis 2019 13:15

Sanskritinkielinen Bodhisattva pratimoksha sutra, englanninkielinen artikkeli http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-BH/bh117539.htm


Palaa sivulle “English Dharma Discussion”

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